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_Ammon_
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Posted: Tue Sep 15th, 2009 04:08 am |
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Genesis 3:22-3 reads, "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."
2 Corinthians 3:18 reads, "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
Irenaeus wrote, "Jesus Christ, who did through his transcendent love become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."
Athanasius wrote, "God became man so that man might become god."
Aquinas wrote, "The humanity of Christ is the way by which we come to the divinity."
Eastern Catholics, Orthodox and the Mormons believe in deification today. This belief seems to have fallen out of favor with Roman Catholics and all other Christian sects beginning around the time of Augustine (or at least it isn't discussed in detail in the writings I've read so maybe someone will correct me) but I'm wondering what universalists of any denomination think of this theological concept? Is it possible for man to become holy as God is holy? Is this the ultimate goal of universal rescue from hell in your view?
Just wondering. 
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yoki
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Posted: Tue Sep 15th, 2009 09:22 pm |
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_Ammon_ wrote: Genesis 3:22-3 reads, "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."
2 Corinthians 3:18 reads, "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
Irenaeus wrote, "Jesus Christ, who did through his transcendent love become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."
Athanasius wrote, "God became man so that man might become god."
Aquinas wrote, "The humanity of Christ is the way by which we come to the divinity."
Eastern Catholics, Orthodox and the Mormons believe in deification today. This belief seems to have fallen out of favor with Roman Catholics and all other Christian sects beginning around the time of Augustine (or at least it isn't discussed in detail in the writings I've read so maybe someone will correct me) but I'm wondering what universalists of any denomination think of this theological concept? Is it possible for man to become holy as God is holy? Is this the ultimate goal of universal rescue from hell in your view?
Just wondering.
There are not many universalists around these days. But as for the other kind of fundie (universalists are just another kind of fundie), they are still choking on Romans chapter 3, and probably will remain so until their dying day. In essence, anyone, like the fundies, who concentrate only on Paul's writings, would never even consider the concept of deification.
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 01:10 am |
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Not quite sure exactly what you are asking. Is it anything along the lines of...
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” Gal 2:20
?
Or is it more where the scripture says 'God all in all' ?
The only then-living bible teacher, and LOVELY man, I ever met who was teaching that kind of thing, where I felt like a sponge in his presence, was a man named Norman Grubb:
http://www.normangrubb.com/
-Although, that said, I *have heard some things, that to my hearing, just sounded off-the-wall, from others, in that regard.
Seems to me to be a fine line, a deep water in which to swim.........so I only dared to get my toes wet, thus far.
(so says one universalist who is still here)
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_Ammon_
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Posted: Mon Sep 21st, 2009 03:56 pm |
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"God all in all", also sometimes expressed extra-Biblically as "thou art God".
Seems to me to be a fine line, a deep water in which to swim.........so I only dared to get my toes wet, thus far.
So when I ask if you think the ultimate goal of universal rescue from hell is to make all souls like unto gods themselves, you ain't sayin' yes but ain't sayin' no neither?
(so says one universalist who is still here)
Nice to see you Ms. Pearls. 
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pickr
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Posted: Sun Sep 27th, 2009 04:44 pm |
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Hi Ammon,
The way I see God's purpose in Christ Jesus is that He is reconciling us to Himself, not deifying us. We are to be His children, not His peers.
If you read the first two chapters of Paul's letter to the Ephesians, I think you'll see what I mean. But the same theme can be found throughout Paul's letters to the churches.
"For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." Ephesians 1:9-10
There it is. Right there. The mystery of God's will made known. And it's pretty wonderful.
Peace to you,
Andy
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Sun Sep 27th, 2009 09:04 pm |
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Hi Andy...so nice to see you pop in.
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Torquemada
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Posted: Wed Sep 30th, 2009 02:58 pm |
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| I believe in deification, but not in the Mormon sense. I see it more as participation in the life of God. I've been thinking a lot lately about the concept of 'eternal life.' The way I see it, the gospel is fundamentally an invitation to participate in the life of God, which is itself an eternal life. You also have this concept of the two births described in John 3. By token of our natural birth, we are said to be children of Adam and heirs of the human nature; but by token of faith, we may become children of God and heirs of the divine nature and all that is included in it. Doesn't 1 Peter talk about being partakers of the 'divine nature?'
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Evelyn
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Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2009 04:02 pm |
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I would say that God exists to the extent that human beings manifest their divine nature. And the devil exists to the extent that human beings manifest their corrupt nature. The Word became flesh. God became man.
If an American became a Canadian, now she is a Canadian, and not an American anymore. If God became man, then humanity is where we find God nowadays.
I think the Bible is like fairy tales, in which there is a good mother who dies and then an evil stepmother steps in--but the truth is that these two mothers are actually just 2 images of one mother, seen from a different perspective. My mother used to love me and take care of me, and now she demands that I do my work and carry my own weight! This can't be my real mother! Or a frog or beast turns into a prince, when a young woman learns to accept the nature of men and to love a man--it's her view of man that has been transformed.
Symbolism is a means of projecting internal states out into the world and seeing them as happening out there, when in reality, they are happening inside, in one's own consciousness.
So in the Bible, at first God is a tribal chieftain in the sky, handing down rules about what and whom to kill in order to make him happy. Then he is like a universal judge in the sky, telling people how to behave in order to make him happy. And then the law is replaced by the gospel and we are "no longer under the law." This only makes sense if we have internalized the idea that our fate is tied to that of our neighbors. And then our "neighborhood" expands to all of humanity, and perhaps to all sentient beings.
And then we realize that God is not up in the sky at all, heaven is not out there somewhere, but the kingdom of God is within, and God dwells with man.
All those battles, all those enemies, are also within. God and Satan vying for control of humanity? Within. Eternal life? Within. Want to serve God? Find the love that God has for humanity within and spread it to some real people here and now. That's all there is.
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