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Buttons
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 11:10 am |
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that I told you I would get back to you on...I don't know which one it was  If you could point my attractive yet thick skull to it...I would be most grateful.
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stiggywiggy
Stiggywiggy
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 08:13 pm |
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It was in the POLITICS forum in the thread titled by Merlin (who else?) Respect for Homosexuals is Madness, and it went like this here:
Buttons wrote: It can only be considered "convenient" if a Christian were somehow required to explain to you or Merlin or any other human being, why they are not conformed to the image of Christ, i.e. why their moral behavior sucks. But they are not so required. So they do not need the allegedly convenient 7th chapter of Romans to make some argument, since that chapter is not an argument at all for the justification of bad behavior, but rather a description of the internal misery that bad behavior inflicts upon every Christian serious about his or her faith.'
Nah...nobody expects Christians to be the image of Christ...and for the record I wouldn't want them to actually follow most of what a Christian with all of their flaws should be like because frankly...I think they would be boring as batshit and no fun to be around.
Well, naturally if you're going to presume that a Christian is essentially a "follower of rules," you're presuming a very boring individual. I would also be bored by your version of what a Christian is.
BUT... I think expecting people that claim to have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in them to behave at least as good if not better than your everyday run of the mill atheist or secular humanist is not unreasonable by any sane standard
Sure it's unreasonable; because Christians don't make the claim that they behave better than non-Christians. They often do make the claim that they behave better than they did before believing, but that's something altogether different. It seems to be your opinion that the behavior of Christians is worse than the behavior of non-Christians. I don't know. I don't see much diference either way, but then I don't claim to have the moral evaluation skills that you and Merlin have.
... but the majority of Christians just aren't. Claiming that it's a struggle etc etc is just an immature way not to take responsibility for their actions and be decent people.
How so? Are you saying that it is not a struggle to try to do right? Should Christians lie about it, just so guys like you won't think they are describing the reality of the struggle as some excuse for something that you are demanding of them?
Claiming to be a vegetarian and stating that all non vegetarians are wrong and not nearly as wonderful in the eyes of God while chewing on a t bone steak is just fucked up and we both know it.
If you are going to use an analogy like that, I'm sure you won't have any objection to an analysis of its fit here. As expected, you analogous part for the Christian is a vegetarian, who is DEFINED by what he cannot do. This is in keeping with your belief that Christianity is essentially a set of rules. Also implicit in your belief is another element completely foreign to Christianity, and in fact preached against: the idea that a Christian believes that his behavior is superior to the "pagans." He only knows that it is supposed to superior to what it was when he lived entirely in the flesh.
This is what the average Christian is like though. Throwing stones at gay people for their breach of one of the halakhah while the Christian breaches the other 612.
I know a lot of believers, and personally I don't know any like that. Do you? Are these just guys you read about in the newspapers? They get your goat, so you attack the alleged hypocrisy of believers at AARM who have never expressed any such ant-gay sentiment?
..then cry foul and claim they're struggling.
Problem is, no believer is going to cry foul, because they already KNOW that any bad behavior on their part is sin, and IS a foul. They don't need you to tell them. And they damn sure don't owe you an explanation for rules that you think they should follow. Crying foul implies that you act in the role as some sort of moral umpire, and I just can't buy into that, Buttons. I think you're a very interesting bloke and have as warm a heart as any guy in this place, but that doesn't mean that you can function as my conscience. Don't you have one? I know you do. I've seen it. Is it so pure and clean, that you need to go looking for clean-up duty elsewhere?
Obviously not, since James makes it pretty implicitly clear that if the devil is not resisted, the blame is on the one not resisting, i.e. the believer. There is simply no way that you or Merlin can possibly be more anti-bad-Christian-behavior, than the writers of the New Testament are. But some people just enjoy being Bible thumpers, I guess.
If 0.01% of Christians gave a shit about what's written in the bible...there would be no reason for Merlin or myself or anyone else with the common sense to see hypocrisy taken to astronomical levels to say anything.
Man, it's really hard to read that stuff and know what to think. Part of me wants to think it's just anger and bitterness, but that's only because the alternative is almost as bad: that you guys really, really do think you're doing some kind of service by "reminding" Christians of their moral failures.
I mean, damn. I just couldn't do something like that without cringing inside.
That's probably not too inaccurate an assessment in many cases. Who knows? Maybe that sort of moral finger-pointing could justifiably be directed to some of the AARM believers you know here. I'm sure we all have hedonistic elements we're ashamed of. I just stand continually amazed at what could possibly be behind people like you and Merlin wanting to make it your business to point out the moral failures of others. I mean, if it were me, I think I'd feel embarrassingly self-righteous doing that sort of thing. I feel self-righteous enough just pointing out the self-righteousness of others.
The point is that smug self righteous bullshit about having God dwell inside of you ( the general you ) while you ( the general you ) don't even come close to being as good as me let alone Christ.
Well, it seems to me that biblically speaking, "having God dwell inside of you" means agony and turmoil and peace and joy and suffering and struggles and victories, not "better behavior than others.
In fact, if you would like a good biblical depiction of a soul indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, I suggest all of the Psalms written by David. We see David in agony. We see David in ecstasy. We see David curse. We see David praise. We see David speaking from the heart, and he NEVER EVER says a thing about his moral behavior being better than the Philistines or anyone else.
I've forgotten more about the Bible than you've learned yet.
Well, obviously you cannot (logically) possibly know that. There are two major unknowns:
(a). how much of the Bible I've "learned." (are we having a test?), but worse,
(b). how much you forgot. If you forgot it, you have no idea the quantity of what you forgot, to measure it against what you also don't know about what I learned.
But the phrase sounded good, huh?
The Jews say there's a bunch of Gods
Not off to a good start with the "condensed version." Actually, they say quite the opposite: that there is only ONE God, and all others are false gods, and therefore not gods.
(The old stiggy would have made a crack as to whether this might be something you forgot, but the new stiggy is just as sneaky and will mention it only parenthetically here, said smeakiness being something you can add to my "bad behavior list.")
...Yahweh being one of them. Moses married a farmers daughter whose family worships Yahweh the God of the Mountain so Moses adopts Yahweh as his personal God
No, actually Moses was very resistant to any relationship at all with God. If anybody was adopting, you have the order reversed.
( as was the practice amongst Sumerians and later Jews ) Moses being raised an Egyptian has the philosophy of a single God rather than multiple Gods ingrained in him as he grew up...in the Egyptian way. Moses applys this monotheism to one of the Gods of the Jewish Pantheon and then tells all the Jews that they must follow the commands of this one God.
Well, see. You are not a believer. That means you don't believe the Bible. That means that you don't believe what I do, which is that Moses went up on Mount Sinai and encountered God. But I think we could have all guessed that you don't believe that. There is no point in telling us here.
Jesus arrives on the scene about the same time as several others. He says to follow the commands of God in the OT as well.
And yet he also breaks the Sabbath by healing, harvesting grain (i.e. working), and encourages his disciples to do the same.
His followers claim he is both the religious and political leader or Messiah ( prophecy has 2 different people fulfilling it ) this causes issues in the Jewish religious political forums and they decide to get rid of Jesus ( as most governments have done to anyone with too great a following and influence to lead the sheeple from the behaviour the state wants.)
So you're saying that evil power protects itself. OK. We know that from experience. So why should we expect it to be different with Herod, Pilate and Jesus' followers? You act like that's some sort of strike against Christianity's credibility. That makes no sense.
After he's killed some guy named Paul comes by and says that Jesus is God and therefore all of Gods commands are moot
Obviously not. This too must be some of that vast biblical stuff you said you forgot:
Paul hands out commands left and right to Timothy, Titus and most of the people he wrote letters to.
He royally chews out the Corinthians for their bad moral behavior.
He warns the Galatians against "immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorceries, enmities, strife, jealousy, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkeness and carousing."
He tells the Colossians:
"Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them. Children, be obedient to your parents in all things. Fathers, do not exaperate your children, that they may not lose heart.."
...but he doesn't stop there...he even contradicts Christ but since his audience was gentile with nothing but ignorance of the original God Yahweh...they just swallow his horseshit.
But he doesn't contardict Christ. Nowhere.
Constantine makes all religions illegal EXCEPT Christianity around 300 AD. He creates the religion Christianity out of a bunch of other religions and turns all of the other temples into Christian churches. Some statues of Isis and Horus from the temples of Isis are still around to this day...the ignorant think it's Mary and Jesus though. Constantine goes on to kill anyone that refuses to join the Christian religion in his thirst for power sending his legions to the 4 winds.
Thanks for the history lesson, but save it for someone who worships Constantine or even Christendom. I don't know anyone who does, especially not here.
For someone in this day and age to ignore the word of God as well as the pretend God Jesus for the Word of Paul just makes the whole thing a farce and completely pointless. There's nothing left of the Jewish God Yahweh by the time you get to Paul.
Good lord, not at all. Qute the contrary. It is in the writings of Paul that the dispensations of Yaweh are somewhat revealed, as well as Yawweh's cosmological plan for the ages.
Limiting freedom? For years and years now I've been hearing certain atheists and agnostics warning about this big danger from Christians. So I ask myself. Is my freedom limited? You know, with the exception of one thing, I can't think of a single thing I would like to do that I am not legally able to do. 95% of my freedoms I'll probably never use. And if I ever could think of another act I'm not free to legally engage in, I somehow doubt it will be because of the imposition of morality from Christians.
Not YOUR freedoms. Christians try to limit the freedom of others by trying to have their alleged moral code made into laws for all. I
I guess a few might "try," but they sure as hell suck at it; enough so that it's hard to muster up paranoia about it. After all, the trend in culture and society throughout most of the western civilization is toward less governmental restrictions on moral behavior.
you're a Christian...you can do whatever the hell you want and then just cry that you're struggling and mutter something about Grace.
To whom? YOU? You'd be the last guy I'd mutter some excuse to about grace, when I am in the midst of struggling with sin. Why would I need to do that? Obviously if I am struggling, the Holy Spirit is involved. How would you function in this? Does the Holy Spirit need your help? Or you want to just pile on?
Last edited on Tue Jan 27th, 2009 08:15 pm by stiggywiggy
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What about guys who have signatures? Pretentious pricks!
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Buttons
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Posted: Wed Jan 28th, 2009 01:25 pm |
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Thank you my friend. I'll try to make your efforts worthwhile...
stiggywiggy wrote: It was in the POLITICS forum in the thread titled by Merlin (who else?) Respect for Homosexuals is Madness, and it went like this here:
Buttons wrote: It can only be considered "convenient" if a Christian were somehow required to explain to you or Merlin or any other human being, why they are not conformed to the image of Christ, i.e. why their moral behavior sucks. But they are not so required. So they do not need the allegedly convenient 7th chapter of Romans to make some argument, since that chapter is not an argument at all for the justification of bad behavior, but rather a description of the internal misery that bad behavior inflicts upon every Christian serious about his or her faith.'
Nah...nobody expects Christians to be the image of Christ...and for the record I wouldn't want them to actually follow most of what a Christian with all of their flaws should be like because frankly...I think they would be boring as batshit and no fun to be around.
Well, naturally if you're going to presume that a Christian is essentially a "follower of rules," you're presuming a very boring individual. I would also be bored by your version of what a Christian is.
But it's not "my version" of what a Christian is. It's the Biblical description of what God and Jesus state that His followers would be like. That coupled with "By their fruits shall you know them..." makes it easy to see who is and isn't a Christian.
I realise that others came along after the fact but do these humans really have more say in how a follower of God is to behave than God Himself?
I'm serious here Stiggy, you can repeat that Paul didn't contradict God over and over or even type "But he didn't" in reply to this but anyone with at least a grade 3 reading level can see that he does and your denial doesn't make it not true.
BUT... I think expecting people that claim to have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in them to behave at least as good if not better than your everyday run of the mill atheist or secular humanist is not unreasonable by any sane standard
Sure it's unreasonable; because Christians don't make the claim that they behave better than non-Christians. They often do make the claim that they behave better than they did before believing, but that's something altogether different.
Fair enough, if it's your belief that Christians are better than they were but can still be the worst that the world has to offer even with the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. I can accept that. It doesn't say much for the Holy Spirit though.
It seems to be your opinion that the behavior of Christians is worse than the behavior of non-Christians. I don't know. I don't see much diference either way, but then I don't claim to have the moral evaluation skills that you and Merlin have.
Yes, it's my opinion that Christians generally are a bunch on judgemental hypocrites that don't even come close to me as far as morality and humanitarian behavior is concerned...let alone people that make a real effort to be good people.
What makes it worse is that the leaders of Christians put themselves up on this pedestal allegedly as spiritual leaders and yet time and time again we see that they're worthless reprobates that reflect NOTHING of Christ...let alone a little.
... but the majority of Christians just aren't. Claiming that it's a struggle etc etc is just an immature way not to take responsibility for their actions and be decent people.
How so? Are you saying that it is not a struggle to try to do right? Should Christians lie about it, just so guys like you won't think they are describing the reality of the struggle as some excuse for something that you are demanding of them?
Yes, I'm saying that it's not a struggle to do right. An ethical man does the right thing because he knows it's right. A moral man just does what's right. A Christian does whatever the hell they want and then claims that because some guy was martyred 2000 years ago that they're still more favored by God that those who are clearly far more of an asset to mankind and and peace and love than they are.
Whether it's stated openly or just as the long standing assumption that's been associated with the elitism that Christianity has always held dear...it's there.
Claiming to be a vegetarian and stating that all non vegetarians are wrong and not nearly as wonderful in the eyes of God while chewing on a t bone steak is just fucked up and we both know it.
If you are going to use an analogy like that, I'm sure you won't have any objection to an analysis of its fit here. As expected, you analogous part for the Christian is a vegetarian, who is DEFINED by what he cannot do. This is in keeping with your belief that Christianity is essentially a set of rules. Also implicit in your belief is another element completely foreign to Christianity, and in fact preached against: the idea that a Christian believes that his behavior is superior to the "pagans." He only knows that it is supposed to superior to what it was when he lived entirely in the flesh.
It also DEFINES what he can do. Why are the rules that God set down for His followers so hard for Christians to just follow? Stop the excuses...Stop trying to justify shit behavior with semantics and twisting scripture. Just follow the Will of God! Why is it so fucking hard to do for a Christian when the majority of it is followed without the slightest effort for non Christians?
This is what the average Christian is like though. Throwing stones at gay people for their breach of one of the halakhah while the Christian breaches the other 612.
I know a lot of believers, and personally I don't know any like that. Do you? Are these just guys you read about in the newspapers? They get your goat, so you attack the alleged hypocrisy of believers at AARM who have never expressed any such ant-gay sentiment?
So no Christians here have any issue with homosexuals? No problem if Merls and Cathy come over for dinner and have a quiet intimate moment in front of the Pastor in your home? What about the constant bullshit I read here about Christians and non Christians being unable to be friends or however the hell it's put.
Is it so hard for Christians to be friends with people that feel personally responsible for their actions and think others should as well...you know so society doesn't collapse while everyone is busy making excuses for their fucked up behavior instead of contributing to society.
..then cry foul and claim they're struggling.
Problem is, no believer is going to cry foul, because they already KNOW that any bad behavior on their part is sin, and IS a foul. They don't need you to tell them. And they damn sure don't owe you an explanation for rules that you think they should follow.
Actually they do if they want to live in the same society as I do. Especially if they expect to continue to constantly rally to try to have their bullshit agendas forced on the rest of us as legal mandates...from trying to force us to see their religious hocus pocus in our state buildings...to trying to brainwash our children with superstitious horshit in schools before the child is even old enough to have the ability to be logical... to telling others what they can or can't do with their own bodies... to telling people who they can or can't love based on parts of the Bible that they completely ignore otherwise. The list could go on for a page but I think I've made my point so clear that even the slowest person reading could glean the point by now.
AND YET they can't even follow their own damn rules that were set out for THEM by their GOD but try to force the rest of us to.
Crying foul implies that you act in the role as some sort of moral umpire, and I just can't buy into that, Buttons. I think you're a very interesting bloke and have as warm a heart as any guy in this place, but that doesn't mean that you can function as my conscience. Don't you have one? I know you do. I've seen it. Is it so pure and clean, that you need to go looking for clean-up duty elsewhere?
That's just the point...compared to most Christians...I'm a fucking angel of mercy. AND I SHOULDN'T BE!
Obviously not, since James makes it pretty implicitly clear that if the devil is not resisted, the blame is on the one not resisting, i.e. the believer. There is simply no way that you or Merlin can possibly be more anti-bad-Christian-behavior, than the writers of the New Testament are. But some people just enjoy being Bible thumpers, I guess.
If 0.01% of Christians gave a shit about what's written in the bible...there would be no reason for Merlin or myself or anyone else with the common sense to see hypocrisy taken to astronomical levels to say anything.
Man, it's really hard to read that stuff and know what to think. Part of me wants to think it's just anger and bitterness, but that's only because the alternative is almost as bad: that you guys really, really do think you're doing some kind of service by "reminding" Christians of their moral failures.
I mean, damn. I just couldn't do something like that without cringing inside.
Wheras I think that a true friend will tell you when you're full of shit when nobody else has the guts to. You can celebrate and revel in sin with the rest of the Christians or you can accept personal responsibility and become a better person because you know in your heart that it's the right thing to do.
That's probably not too inaccurate an assessment in many cases. Who knows? Maybe that sort of moral finger-pointing could justifiably be directed to some of the AARM believers you know here. I'm sure we all have hedonistic elements we're ashamed of. I just stand continually amazed at what could possibly be behind people like you and Merlin wanting to make it your business to point out the moral failures of others. I mean, if it were me, I think I'd feel embarrassingly self-righteous doing that sort of thing. I feel self-righteous enough just pointing out the self-righteousness of others.
The point is that smug self righteous bullshit about having God dwell inside of you ( the general you ) while you ( the general you ) don't even come close to being as good as me let alone Christ.
Well, it seems to me that biblically speaking, "having God dwell inside of you" means agony and turmoil and peace and joy and suffering and struggles and victories, not "better behavior than others.
Oh well...if that's what it mans then it's not a Christian specific trait...even atheist serial killers have all of that going on inside of them. I thought that having God dwell within you meant that there was a difference between you and the the person that doesn't.
In fact, if you would like a good biblical depiction of a soul indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, I suggest all of the Psalms written by David. We see David in agony. We see David in ecstasy. We see David curse. We see David praise. We see David speaking from the heart, and he NEVER EVER says a thing about his moral behavior being better than the Philistines or anyone else.
Yeah got it...Christians use the term "Having God dwelling in them " to describe common basic internal human emotion and conscience. I thought the Holy Spirit was supposed to be an actual entity with substance. I'm starting to understand now though.
I've forgotten more about the Bible than you've learned yet.
Well, obviously you cannot (logically) possibly know that. There are two major unknowns:
(a). how much of the Bible I've "learned." (are we having a test?), but worse,
(b). how much you forgot. If you forgot it, you have no idea the quantity of what you forgot, to measure it against what you also don't know about what I learned.
But the phrase sounded good, huh?
LOL fair call. and while it may be true..It can also not be proven so I retract it.
The Jews say there's a bunch of Gods
Not off to a good start with the "condensed version." Actually, they say quite the opposite: that there is only ONE God, and all others are false gods, and therefore not gods.
Is that so? Please tell me what the Jewish Pantheon is then.
(The old stiggy would have made a crack as to whether this might be something you forgot, but the new stiggy is just as sneaky and will mention it only parenthetically here, said smeakiness being something you can add to my "bad behavior list.")
LOL still funny. But, you're wrong. It was Moses and his Egyptian upbringing that brought the monotheism into Jewish faith.
...Yahweh being one of them. Moses married a farmers daughter whose family worships Yahweh the God of the Mountain so Moses adopts Yahweh as his personal God
No, actually Moses was very resistant to any relationship at all with God. If anybody was adopting, you have the order reversed.
Sorry...you're wrong again. This is Jewish stuff Stiggy...Paul has bothing to do with this allegedly historical stuff.
( as was the practice amongst Sumerians and later Jews ) Moses being raised an Egyptian has the philosophy of a single God rather than multiple Gods ingrained in him as he grew up...in the Egyptian way. Moses applys this monotheism to one of the Gods of the Jewish Pantheon and then tells all the Jews that they must follow the commands of this one God.
Well, see. You are not a believer. That means you don't believe the Bible. That means that you don't believe what I do, which is that Moses went up on Mount Sinai and encountered God. But I think we could have all guessed that you don't believe that. There is no point in telling us here.
Uh huh. and the fact that Loryn isn't a believer in the belief that you have a kitten sized penis means that she can't comprehend medical journals of cases where pathological cases exist. Trying to dismiss alleged historical facts with superstitious tapdancing isn't very becoming of you Stigs.
Jesus arrives on the scene about the same time as several others. He says to follow the commands of God in the OT as well.
And yet he also breaks the Sabbath by healing, harvesting grain (i.e. working), and encourages his disciples to do the same.
Yup...further evidence proviiding evidence that he was nothing more than a human being who couldn't be bothered following the Word of God. Let's kill him, martyr him and pretend he was perfect and a God....No...let's pretend he was the God he used to pray to and worship...well...sometimes. When he did care enough about the Will of God...he preached that it was to be followed until the heavens and earth cease to exist.
His followers claim he is both the religious and political leader or Messiah ( prophecy has 2 different people fulfilling it ) this causes issues in the Jewish religious political forums and they decide to get rid of Jesus ( as most governments have done to anyone with too great a following and influence to lead the sheeple from the behaviour the state wants.)
So you're saying that evil power protects itself. OK. We know that from experience. So why should we expect it to be different with Herod, Pilate and Jesus' followers? You act like that's some sort of strike against Christianity's credibility. That makes no sense.
Nah...that was just a bit more of a history lesson as to why Jesus was killed.
After he's killed some guy named Paul comes by and says that Jesus is God and therefore all of Gods commands are moot
Obviously not. This too must be some of that vast biblical stuff you said you forgot:
Paul hands out commands left and right to Timothy, Titus and most of the people he wrote letters to.
He royally chews out the Corinthians for their bad moral behavior.
He warns the Galatians against "immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorceries, enmities, strife, jealousy, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkeness and carousing."
He tells the Colossians:
"Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them. Children, be obedient to your parents in all things. Fathers, do not exaperate your children, that they may not lose heart.."
Will get into the whole Paul vs God in a new thread after I get scripture to support my claims.
...but he doesn't stop there...he even contradicts Christ but since his audience was gentile with nothing but ignorance of the original God Yahweh...they just swallow his horseshit.
But he doesn't contardict Christ. Nowhere.
I'll come back to this one with scripture to back up my claim.
Constantine makes all religions illegal EXCEPT Christianity around 300 AD. He creates the religion Christianity out of a bunch of other religions and turns all of the other temples into Christian churches. Some statues of Isis and Horus from the temples of Isis are still around to this day...the ignorant think it's Mary and Jesus though. Constantine goes on to kill anyone that refuses to join the Christian religion in his thirst for power sending his legions to the 4 winds.
Thanks for the history lesson, but save it for someone who worships Constantine or even Christendom. I don't know anyone who does, especially not here.
Anyone that is a Christian worships or holds in reverence the religion that Constantine invented.
For someone in this day and age to ignore the word of God as well as the pretend God Jesus for the Word of Paul just makes the whole thing a farce and completely pointless. There's nothing left of the Jewish God Yahweh by the time you get to Paul.
Good lord, not at all. Qute the contrary. It is in the writings of Paul that the dispensations of Yaweh are somewhat revealed, as well as Yawweh's cosmological plan for the ages.
We'll see in our Paul vs God thread...
Limiting freedom? For years and years now I've been hearing certain atheists and agnostics warning about this big danger from Christians. So I ask myself. Is my freedom limited? You know, with the exception of one thing, I can't think of a single thing I would like to do that I am not legally able to do. 95% of my freedoms I'll probably never use. And if I ever could think of another act I'm not free to legally engage in, I somehow doubt it will be because of the imposition of morality from Christians.
Not YOUR freedoms. Christians try to limit the freedom of others by trying to have their alleged moral code made into laws for all. I
I guess a few might "try," but they sure as hell suck at it; enough so that it's hard to muster up paranoia about it. After all, the trend in culture and society throughout most of the western civilization is toward less governmental restrictions on moral behavior.
How many states allow same sex marriage there again?
you're a Christian...you can do whatever the hell you want and then just cry that you're struggling and mutter something about Grace.
To whom? YOU? You'd be the last guy I'd mutter some excuse to about grace, when I am in the midst of struggling with sin. Why would I need to do that? Obviously if I am struggling, the Holy Spirit is involved. How would you function in this? Does the Holy Spirit need your help? Or you want to just pile on?
Yeah, I get it now. Christians gave their conscience a pet name "Holy Spirit" but it's a nothing more than the rest of us have inside of us. I guess my question remains...Why is it that Christians find it so much harder to be decent human beings than the rest of us? Oh and do the rest of us a favor and shove the right to life and homophobic bans against marriage lobby groups up their collective arses until Christians get their own houses in order.
I think when Christians stop pointing out their perceived moral flaws in the rest of us on a political stage...perhaps we'll stop doing the same to Christians we know as well.
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stiggywiggy
Stiggywiggy
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Posted: Thu Jan 29th, 2009 12:42 am |
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Buttons wrote: But it's not "my version" of what a Christian is. It's the Biblical description of what God and Jesus state that His followers would be like. That coupled with "By their fruits shall you know them..." makes it easy to see who is and isn't a Christian.
But if it's so easy for you to see who is and who is not a Christian, you are implicitly accepting how you interpret what the Bible says about fruits of the spirit. That's good. Seriously. You recognize the fundamental moral foundation in the words of Jesus Christ. That's aweseome. You also recognize a fundamental biblical principle, it's just that you recognize it by experience; that God's people alway act badly and are constantly being chastised for it by God himself. You just want to pile on. Ah well, at least you're pling on for a good cause. Christians should act better. It's just that we don't really need you to tell us about our shortcomings and vices and sins and moral failures. If we don't know about them ourselves, we are obviously in denial and would have no ear for your moral lectures. That is always the problem with moralists who thump Bible commands at people. Their audience is unreceptive.
I'm serious here Stiggy, you can repeat that Paul didn't contradict God over and over or even type "But he didn't" in reply to this but anyone with at least a grade 3 reading level can see that he does and your denial doesn't make it not true.
Well, why not show me where Paul contradicts Jesus? Give me verses if possible. You know: Jesus said this "......," while Paul said "this....".
Fair enough, if it's your belief that Christians are better than they were but can still be the worst that the world has to offer even with the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. I can accept that. It doesn't say much for the Holy Spirit though.
Well, I must say Buttons. You have taken your moral authority to a higher level. Now you're judging the Holy Spirit. Awesome.
Yes, it's my opinion that Christians generally are a bunch on judgemental hypocrites that don't even come close to me as far as morality and humanitarian behavior is concerned
OK. Sounds like you're a swell guy allright.
What makes it worse is that the leaders of Christians put themselves up on this pedestal allegedly as spiritual leaders and yet time and time again we see that they're worthless reprobates that reflect NOTHING of Christ...let alone a little.
I agree. But who does that on this board? I don't have any spiritual leaders because I find they are most all as you describe. But Merlin says I'm commanded to go to church anyway. What say ye?
Yes, I'm saying that it's not a struggle to do right.
OK. We'll just have to realize that we have vastly different interior lives.
It also DEFINES what he can do. Why are the rules that God set down for His followers so hard for Christians to just follow? Stop the excuses
For what? For not following rules? I don't need an excuse for a task that I was never assigned. My failures come from not following a Person. And these failures, you're not privy to. I'm just wondering why you'd want to make it your business. Whom should I offer this excuse to? You?
...Stop trying to justify shit behavior with semantics and twisting scripture.
What behavior are you saying I'm trying to justify? Seriously. Just my general rudeness, not going to church, not sacrificing sheep, I'm not sure what you mean. And whatever it is, how can you know I'm trying to justify it? How can you not know that I might hate myself for doing whatever it is?
But first of all I need you to tell me what this bad behavior is.
Just follow the Will of God! Why is it so fucking hard to do for a Christian when the majority of it is followed without the slightest effort for non Christians?
Like what? What are you guys doing better than us guys? Can you get more specific? Let's start with you and me. You seem to think you're a better man, morally than I. I really can't say one way or another and don't really think it's fruitful to make comparisons like that. But since you do, get specific, please. What good stuff do you do that I don't do, or what bad stuff do I do that you don't do?
So no Christians here have any issue with homosexuals? No problem if Merls and Cathy come over for dinner and have a quiet intimate moment in front of the Pastor in your home?
I don't know. I can't say what others would feel about that. I guess you think you can and will attack the hypothetical result of the social scene you imagine. I just don't know why you'd want to do that. As for me, I have dined occasionally with lesbian couples, even one in my family, and never thought it was that big a deal.
Problem is, no believer is going to cry foul, because they already KNOW that any bad behavior on their part is sin, and IS a foul. They don't need you to tell them. And they damn sure don't owe you an explanation for rules that you think they should follow.
Actually they do if they want to live in the same society as I do. Especially if they expect to continue to constantly rally to try to have their bullshit agendas forced on the rest of us as legal mandates...from trying to force us to see their religious hocus pocus in our state buildings...to trying to brainwash our children with superstitious horshit in schools before the child is even old enough to have the ability to be logical... to telling others what they can or can't do with their own bodies... to telling people who they can or can't love based on parts of the Bible that they completely ignore otherwise.
Listen, no offense. But I think I'm gonna bow out of the rest of this part, since it obviously doesn't pertain to me. I too despise religious political agendas. Rant on.
You can celebrate and revel in sin with the rest of the Christians or you can accept personal responsibility and become a better person because you know in your heart that it's the right thing to do.
OK. tell me what you want me to do. You think I'm reveling in sin. I don't know why you think that, but what should I do about it?
Well, it seems to me that biblically speaking, "having God dwell inside of you" means agony and turmoil and peace and joy and suffering and struggles and victories, not "better behavior than others.
Oh well...if that's what it mans then it's not a Christian specific trait...even atheist serial killers have all of that going on inside of them. I thought that having God dwell within you meant that there was a difference between you and the the person that doesn't.
Not sure why you thought that. Christianity is always about the contrast between a believer's flesh and spirit and NEVER about a contrast between his behavior and anyone else's.
In fact, if you would like a good biblical depiction of a soul indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, I suggest all of the Psalms written by David. We see David in agony. We see David in ecstasy. We see David curse. We see David praise. We see David speaking from the heart, and he NEVER EVER says a thing about his moral behavior being better than the Philistines or anyone else.
Yeah got it...Christians use the term "Having God dwelling in them " to describe common basic internal human emotion and conscience. I thought the Holy Spirit was supposed to be an actual entity with substance. I'm starting to understand now though.
Christians don't need to "use" anything in that regard. If they are having true spiritual conflicts, they just know that they are by the discomfort involved. What would they need to "use" that knowledge on? You think non-believers have spiritual and moral struggles too? So do I.
The Jews say there's a bunch of Gods
Not off to a good start with the "condensed version." Actually, they say quite the opposite: that there is only ONE God, and all others are false gods, and therefore not gods.
Is that so? Please tell me what the Jewish Pantheon is then.
Couldn't say. But I can tell you that the OT depicts and declares ONE God only.
...Yahweh being one of them. Moses married a farmers daughter whose family worships Yahweh the God of the Mountain so Moses adopts Yahweh as his personal God
No, actually Moses was very resistant to any relationship at all with God. If anybody was adopting, you have the order reversed.
Sorry...you're wrong again. This is Jewish stuff Stiggy...Paul has bothing to do with this allegedly historical stuff.
No, Buttons. Paul did not write the book of Exodus. You need to read it. Moses resisted God, as I said. Monotheism is hardly depicted as Moses' idea.
( as was the practice amongst Sumerians and later Jews ) Moses being raised an Egyptian has the philosophy of a single God rather than multiple Gods ingrained in him as he grew up...in the Egyptian way. Moses applys this monotheism to one of the Gods of the Jewish Pantheon and then tells all the Jews that they must follow the commands of this one God.
Again, you need to read the narrative in Exodus. Moses didn't apply anything. He even told God that he was a stutterer and the wrong guy for the job.
Uh huh. and the fact that Loryn isn't a believer in the belief that you have a kitten sized penis means that she can't comprehend medical journals of cases where pathological cases exist. Trying to dismiss alleged historical facts with superstitious tapdancing isn't very becoming of you Stigs.
Great. So now you want to insult me about the size of my penis because I don't agree with you that Moses did not "apply monotheism." My penis size seemed to suffice on my last visit to your hemisphere. I didn't hear any complaints. (See, we really don't want to add that element back in, do we? Hear how tacky that sounded?)
Look, dude. If you're gonna revert to the old insulting Buttons, at least come up with some fresh material. Something that is actually funny. Didn't Beavis and Butthead snicker enough for all of us on that subject?
But superstition?? OK. You think Exodus is a superstition. You don't believe it. Big deal. So my penis gets insulted in the process? That's some stupid shit, Buttons.
And yet he also breaks the Sabbath by healing, harvesting grain (i.e. working), and encourages his disciples to do the same.
Yup...further evidence proviiding evidence that he was nothing more than a human being who couldn't be bothered following the Word of God. Let's kill him, martyr him and pretend he was perfect and a God....
Allright. Let's identify these hypothetical people you are attacking. Who back in 33AD Palestine would have advocated killing him so that he could be worshiped? Well, no one. He was killed for the opposite reason.
When he did care enough about the Will of God
Most manifest at Gologotha. This care for the will of God.
Anyone that is a Christian worships or holds in reverence the religion that Constantine invented.
I don't buy that for a minute and see no reason why anyone should, but if it were true, then I am DEFINITELY NOT a Christian.
Limiting freedom? For years and years now I've been hearing certain atheists and agnostics warning about this big danger from Christians. So I ask myself. Is my freedom limited? You know, with the exception of one thing, I can't think of a single thing I would like to do that I am not legally able to do. 95% of my freedoms I'll probably never use. And if I ever could think of another act I'm not free to legally engage in, I somehow doubt it will be because of the imposition of morality from Christians.
Not YOUR freedoms. Christians try to limit the freedom of others by trying to have their alleged moral code made into laws for all.
Who?? Not me. Anyone here at AARM you know doing that limiting freedom thing?
I guess a few might "try," but they sure as hell suck at it; enough so that it's hard to muster up paranoia about it. After all, the trend in culture and society throughout most of the western civilization is toward less governmental restrictions on moral behavior.
How many states allow same sex marriage there again?
Well, you obviously can't blame restrictions against same -sex marriage entirely on fundies. They are disallowed in most nations, regardless of religion. Or maybe you think the Soviet Union was a fundy Christian nation.
Why is it that Christians find it so much harder to be decent human beings than the rest of us?
I guess they just can't live up to the tremendous standards of decency that you innately possess. But you know something? The sooner you realize that fact, the sooner you'll stop trying to cram your morality down their throats.
Last edited on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 12:44 am by stiggywiggy
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What about guys who have signatures? Pretentious pricks!
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Buttons
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Posted: Thu Jan 29th, 2009 01:22 pm |
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Firstly...thanks for cleaning up the mess that the thread already was.
stiggywiggy wrote: Buttons wrote: But it's not "my version" of what a Christian is. It's the Biblical description of what God and Jesus state that His followers would be like. That coupled with "By their fruits shall you know them..." makes it easy to see who is and isn't a Christian.
But if it's so easy for you to see who is and who is not a Christian, you are implicitly accepting how you interpret what the Bible says about fruits of the spirit. That's good. Seriously. You recognize the fundamental moral foundation in the words of Jesus Christ. That's aweseome. You also recognize a fundamental biblical principle, it's just that you recognize it by experience; that God's people alway act badly and are constantly being chastised for it by God himself. You just want to pile on.
You were doing so well unyil you made this last incorrect assumption. I'm not "piling on" because frankly NOBODY seems to be holding Christians responsible for their actions and until they stop pretending to be somehow superior to non Christians and trying to force the moral code that they can't even follow down the rest of our throats...there will be people like me telling them to clean up their own yard before they shove their nose into mine.
Ah well, at least you're pling on for a good cause. Christians should act better. It's just that we don't really need you to tell us about our shortcomings and vices and sins and moral failures. If we don't know about them ourselves, we are obviously in denial and would have no ear for your moral lectures. That is always the problem with moralists who thump Bible commands at people. Their audience is unreceptive.
I agree and it sucks to have the moral expectations of another person shoved intpo you face but as I said...until Christians stop doing it to the rest of us...I see no point in stopping from telling them how fucked up they are by their own standards.
I'm serious here Stiggy, you can repeat that Paul didn't contradict God over and over or even type "But he didn't" in reply to this but anyone with at least a grade 3 reading level can see that he does and your denial doesn't make it not true.
Well, why not show me where Paul contradicts Jesus? Give me verses if possible. You know: Jesus said this "......," while Paul said "this....".
I shall but as I said before...it deserves its own thread. I'll have more time this weekend to research.
Fair enough, if it's your belief that Christians are better than they were but can still be the worst that the world has to offer even with the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. I can accept that. It doesn't say much for the Holy Spirit though.
Well, I must say Buttons. You have taken your moral authority to a higher level. Now you're judging the Holy Spirit. Awesome.
The Holy Spirit is nothing more than a pet name for your conscience from what I can gather. So it's not like I'm judging a seperate entity. Shrug.
Yes, it's my opinion that Christians generally are a bunch on judgemental hypocrites that don't even come close to me as far as morality and humanitarian behavior is concerned
OK. Sounds like you're a swell guy allright.
Most people that know me tend to gush on about it yeah...but as I said....it's really no effort at all. I was raised by decent people to be a decent person which is a benefit to society.
What makes it worse is that the leaders of Christians put themselves up on this pedestal allegedly as spiritual leaders and yet time and time again we see that they're worthless reprobates that reflect NOTHING of Christ...let alone a little.
I agree. But who does that on this board? I don't have any spiritual leaders because I find they are most all as you describe. But Merlin says I'm commanded to go to church anyway. What say ye?
Whether or not the 6 Christians on this board personally do it is moot. They're claiming affiliation with billions that do. It's like saying you're a KKK member but because you haven't personally lynched any black people that you have no responsibility for the actions of your kindred.
As far as you going to church is concerned...I'm pretty sure that Jesus specifically preached against it. I guess it depends on which God you listen to...the Jewish one or the Roman one.
Yes, I'm saying that it's not a struggle to do right.
OK. We'll just have to realize that we have vastly different interior lives.
I guess so and I sincerely feel sorry for you if that's the case.
It also DEFINES what he can do. Why are the rules that God set down for His followers so hard for Christians to just follow? Stop the excuses
For what? For not following rules? I don't need an excuse for a task that I was never assigned. My failures come from not following a Person. And these failures, you're not privy to. I'm just wondering why you'd want to make it your business. Whom should I offer this excuse to? You?
It all goes back to Christians minding their own damn business and keeping their religion out of the rest of our faces. If Christians believed in their god and shut the fuck up about it and let the rest of us live in peace, I promise you that I wouldn't give them a nano second of my time in thought.
Until then, as part of the non Christian society that they're trying to contral until their ever so happy day of global annihilation...yes I and every other member of society is owed a reason why Christians think they can behave in unacceptable manners and yet continue to try to make the rest of our lives lousy.
...Stop trying to justify shit behavior with semantics and twisting scripture.
What behavior are you saying I'm trying to justify? Seriously. Just my general rudeness, not going to church, not sacrificing sheep, I'm not sure what you mean. And whatever it is, how can you know I'm trying to justify it? How can you not know that I might hate myself for doing whatever it is?
But first of all I need you to tell me what this bad behavior is.
I'm not discussing you specifically. The day Christians in general, put as much passion in the prevention of someone wearing a weave of 2 different fibres as they do the sin of homosexuality will be a sign that the behaviors I eluded to are diminishing.
Just follow the Will of God! Why is it so fucking hard to do for a Christian when the majority of it is followed without the slightest effort for non Christians?
Like what? What are you guys doing better than us guys? Can you get more specific? Let's start with you and me. You seem to think you're a better man, morally than I. I really can't say one way or another and don't really think it's fruitful to make comparisons like that. But since you do, get specific, please. What good stuff do you do that I don't do, or what bad stuff do I do that you don't do?
I am sick to my stomach at the torture and cruelty that the US has inflicted on the Muslim people generally and the Afghani and Iraqi people specifically. There's no excuse for it and we don't have the luxury of personally defining what we consider torture and cruelty to be. That's already been doone and it's been breached and the Bush Administration should be tried and punished for crimes against humanity. I think Jesus himself would stand beside me and give a solid "Fucking A!" to that as well.
I don't see arabs or Muslims as less deserving of humanity than non arabs or Christians.
For a quick example.
So no Christians here have any issue with homosexuals? No problem if Merls and Cathy come over for dinner and have a quiet intimate moment in front of the Pastor in your home?
I don't know. I can't say what others would feel about that. I guess you think you can and will attack the hypothetical result of the social scene you imagine. I just don't know why you'd want to do that. As for me, I have dined occasionally with lesbian couples, even one in my family, and never thought it was that big a deal.
Well let's take a guess...out of 100 God fearing Christians...the ones that want forced prayer in public schools and their superstitions on the walls of public building. How many would embrace the idea?
Problem is, no believer is going to cry foul, because they already KNOW that any bad behavior on their part is sin, and IS a foul. They don't need you to tell them. And they damn sure don't owe you an explanation for rules that you think they should follow.
Actually they do if they want to live in the same society as I do. Especially if they expect to continue to constantly rally to try to have their bullshit agendas forced on the rest of us as legal mandates...from trying to force us to see their religious hocus pocus in our state buildings...to trying to brainwash our children with superstitious horshit in schools before the child is even old enough to have the ability to be logical... to telling others what they can or can't do with their own bodies... to telling people who they can or can't love based on parts of the Bible that they completely ignore otherwise.
Listen, no offense. But I think I'm gonna bow out of the rest of this part, since it obviously doesn't pertain to me. I too despise religious political agendas. Rant on.
No need to continue my point if you agree. Perhaps if believers such as yourself stood up against them with the non Christians...they would be more effectively dismissed and their oppression could be reduced. No need to refer to my expression of an idea as a rant either. It's that which I was speaking of and you have just said you oppose that makes non Christians arc up in the first place.
You can celebrate and revel in sin with the rest of the Christians or you can accept personal responsibility and become a better person because you know in your heart that it's the right thing to do.
OK. tell me what you want me to do. You think I'm reveling in sin. I don't know why you think that, but what should I do about it?
Whatever sin you know is wrong and yet you continue to do it. Just stop doing it. No big deal. If you know something is a sin...then don't do it. You aren't a child, as an adult you have no excuse not to take responsibility for your actions.
Well, it seems to me that biblically speaking, "having God dwell inside of you" means agony and turmoil and peace and joy and suffering and struggles and victories, not "better behavior than others.
Oh well...if that's what it mans then it's not a Christian specific trait...even atheist serial killers have all of that going on inside of them. I thought that having God dwell within you meant that there was a difference between you and the the person that doesn't.
Not sure why you thought that. Christianity is always about the contrast between a believer's flesh and spirit and NEVER about a contrast between his behavior and anyone else's.
I was mistaken. I thought the Holy Spirit was an actual entity that actual had some impact on the lives of those it allegedly inhabited. I know better now.
In fact, if you would like a good biblical depiction of a soul indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, I suggest all of the Psalms written by David. We see David in agony. We see David in ecstasy. We see David curse. We see David praise. We see David speaking from the heart, and he NEVER EVER says a thing about his moral behavior being better than the Philistines or anyone else.
Yeah got it...Christians use the term "Having God dwelling in them " to describe common basic internal human emotion and conscience. I thought the Holy Spirit was supposed to be an actual entity with substance. I'm starting to understand now though.
Christians don't need to "use" anything in that regard. If they are having true spiritual conflicts, they just know that they are by the discomfort involved. What would they need to "use" that knowledge on? You think non-believers have spiritual and moral struggles too? So do I.
If it makes you feel better to refer to social and emotional problems as spiritual struggles, I'm fine with it because I know what you mean. But, it tends to cloud the issue by implying that there's actually a spirit involved in any way.
The Jews say there's a bunch of Gods
Not off to a good start with the "condensed version." Actually, they say quite the opposite: that there is only ONE God, and all others are false gods, and therefore not gods.
Is that so? Please tell me what the Jewish Pantheon is then.
Couldn't say. But I can tell you that the OT depicts and declares ONE God only.
I suggest that you do a little research on it then. The monotheistic view of God came from Egyptian influence on ancient Jews.
...Yahweh being one of them. Moses married a farmers daughter whose family worships Yahweh the God of the Mountain so Moses adopts Yahweh as his personal God
No, actually Moses was very resistant to any relationship at all with God. If anybody was adopting, you have the order reversed.
Sorry...you're wrong again. This is Jewish stuff Stiggy...Paul has bothing to do with this allegedly historical stuff.
No, Buttons. Paul did not write the book of Exodus. You need to read it. Moses resisted God, as I said. Monotheism is hardly depicted as Moses' idea.
After you learn about the Jewish Pantheon and the history of Judaism we'll be able to better discuss it.
( as was the practice amongst Sumerians and later Jews ) Moses being raised an Egyptian has the philosophy of a single God rather than multiple Gods ingrained in him as he grew up...in the Egyptian way. Moses applys this monotheism to one of the Gods of the Jewish Pantheon and then tells all the Jews that they must follow the commands of this one God.
Again, you need to read the narrative in Exodus. Moses didn't apply anything. He even told God that he was a stutterer and the wrong guy for the job.
Sorry, but picking a history book and starting in the middle is never a good way to learn the truth.
Uh huh. and the fact that Loryn isn't a believer in the belief that you have a kitten sized penis means that she can't comprehend medical journals of cases where pathological cases exist. Trying to dismiss alleged historical facts with superstitious tapdancing isn't very becoming of you Stigs.
Great. So now you want to insult me about the size of my penis because I don't agree with you that Moses did not "apply monotheism." My penis size seemed to suffice on my last visit to your hemisphere. I didn't hear any complaints. (See, we really don't want to add that element back in, do we? Hear how tacky that sounded?)
Oh I don't know...some of the girls here are still raving about what a great lover you are...grin It was to lighten the mood Chris...not meant as a hurtful statement. The point I made with it is still as true.
Look, dude. If you're gonna revert to the old insulting Buttons, at least come up with some fresh material. Something that is actually funny. Didn't Beavis and Butthead snicker enough for all of us on that subject?
That was new material, I'm sorry you were hurt. I didn't realise that you were so precious now and I'll try not to joke around in the future.
But superstition?? OK. You think Exodus is a superstition. You don't believe it. Big deal. So my penis gets insulted in the process? That's some stupid shit, Buttons.
The point I made was valid and I'm sorry that I joked about you allegedly having a kitten sized penis. I'll try not to be so scathing and brutal in the future.
And yet he also breaks the Sabbath by healing, harvesting grain (i.e. working), and encourages his disciples to do the same.
Yup...further evidence proviiding evidence that he was nothing more than a human being who couldn't be bothered following the Word of God. Let's kill him, martyr him and pretend he was perfect and a God....
Allright. Let's identify these hypothetical people you are attacking. Who back in 33AD Palestine would have advocated killing him so that he could be worshiped? Well, no one. He was killed for the opposite reason.
The problem is that until 300 AD that Christianity, while having a small foollowing because it accepted women and children into it...was nothing more than a fly by night cult. It wasn't until Constantine created the Christianity of today that it became anything of note. I agree that he wasn't killed to be a martyr...that just happened after the fact...similar to some Muslim people that are killed unexpectedly today. People took his death and then used it in a most foul way...to help push a political agenda and create a religion.
Jesus lived and died a Jew just as he told everyone else to do. To be good Jews.
When he did care enough about the Will of God
Most manifest at Gologotha. This care for the will of God.
That was the will of the Romans acting on the will of the Jewish people and Jesus couldn't have stopped it if he wanted to...assuming he didn't want to.
Anyone that is a Christian worships or holds in reverence the religion that Constantine invented.
I don't buy that for a minute and see no reason why anyone should, but if it were true, then I am DEFINITELY NOT a Christian.
I don't consider you a Christian either.
Limiting freedom? For years and years now I've been hearing certain atheists and agnostics warning about this big danger from Christians. So I ask myself. Is my freedom limited? You know, with the exception of one thing, I can't think of a single thing I would like to do that I am not legally able to do. 95% of my freedoms I'll probably never use. And if I ever could think of another act I'm not free to legally engage in, I somehow doubt it will be because of the imposition of morality from Christians.
Not YOUR freedoms. Christians try to limit the freedom of others by trying to have their alleged moral code made into laws for all.
Who?? Not me. Anyone here at AARM you know doing that limiting freedom thing?
Again...just because you don't personally lynch black folk...if you proudly wear the hood and sheets...you're guilty by association.
I guess a few might "try," but they sure as hell suck at it; enough so that it's hard to muster up paranoia about it. After all, the trend in culture and society throughout most of the western civilization is toward less governmental restrictions on moral behavior.
How many states allow same sex marriage there again?
Well, you obviously can't blame restrictions against same -sex marriage entirely on fundies. They are disallowed in most nations, regardless of religion. Or maybe you think the Soviet Union was a fundy Christian nation.
They're disallowed in most countries due to religious pressure. Yes the 2 or 3 countries that rule by fear and and iron fisted tyranny also ban it but that doesn't mean the other 99% of nations that do ban it due to religious pressure don't exist.
Why is it that Christians find it so much harder to be decent human beings than the rest of us?
I guess they just can't live up to the tremendous standards of decency that you innately possess. But you know something? The sooner you realize that fact, the sooner you'll stop trying to cram your morality down their throats.
Once again...it sucks to have someone else doing it to you...especially when they actually do the walk rather than just spout shit. When Christians stop doing it to the rest of us...We will cease in return.
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stiggywiggy
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Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 03:21 am |
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Buttons wrote: I agree and it sucks to have the moral expectations of another person shoved intpo you face but as I said...until Christians stop doing it to the rest of us...I see no point in stopping from telling them how fucked up they are by their own standards.
So you don't like people to push their morality down your throat, but since other people do it to you, you will therefore do it to people like me who never push morality down anyone's throat. Sure. That makes sense. "Do unto others before they do it unto you."
Preventive pre-strike Bible thumping.
Well let's take a guess...out of 100 God fearing Christians...the ones that want forced prayer in public schools and their superstitions on the walls of public building. How many would embrace the idea?
Not many. Not I, at least. Did someone here at AARM endorse forced prayers and religious documents on the walls of public buildings? I must have missed that. Who was it?
Whatever sin you know is wrong and yet you continue to do it. Just stop doing it. No big deal.
Oh!! OK. Man, I wish someone had told Paul that. It could have saved him the agony of Romans 7.
No, Buttons. Paul did not write the book of Exodus. You need to read it. Moses resisted God, as I said. Monotheism is hardly depicted as Moses' idea.
After you learn about the Jewish Pantheon and the history of Judaism we'll be able to better discuss it.
How so? The discussion is whether the Bible depicts God a one god or as one of many gods. Obviously from the OT, we know it's the former. Oh, and I can't find "pantheon" in a Concordance.
Again, you need to read the narrative in Exodus. Moses didn't apply anything. He even told God that he was a stutterer and the wrong guy for the job.
Sorry, but picking a history book and starting in the middle is never a good way to learn the truth.
Doesn't matter. Start at the beginning. Read Exodus backwards if you wish. You won't find any narrative about Moses "applying his own beliefs" about God's monotheism. God encountered him, not vice-versa. If all you have to say to that is "yeah, but I don't believe the Bible," OK. I already knew that.
The problem is that until 300 AD that Christianity, while having a small foollowing because it accepted women and children into it...was nothing more than a fly by night cult. It wasn't until Constantine created....
I don't give a shit about Constantine. He has zero impact on my belief.
Anyone that is a Christian worships or holds in reverence the religion that Constantine invented.
Sorry. Constantine did not "invent" Christianity. He may have invented Christendom, but even that's debatable.
I don't consider you a Christian either.
OK. I have no problem whatsoever with your not considering me a Christian. Well, unless you are one of those elders around the throne in the book of Revelations, who has the Book of Life in his hands. Then I might.
Who?? Not me. Anyone here at AARM you know doing that limiting freedom thing?
Again...just because you don't personally lynch black folk...if you proudly wear the hood and sheets...you're guilty by association.
That's pretty funny. You just said I was not a Christian, and yet I am still "guilty by association" for what you consider the bad behavior of Christians. Can I try that on you:
Hey, Buttons. Some electricians rip their customers off. I realize you're not an electrician, but you are guilty of ripping people off just the same.
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What about guys who have signatures? Pretentious pricks!
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Buttons
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Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 08:56 am |
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We were doing so well too...I guess this thread is dead.
stiggywiggy wrote: Buttons wrote: I agree and it sucks to have the moral expectations of another person shoved intpo you face but as I said...until Christians stop doing it to the rest of us...I see no point in stopping from telling them how fucked up they are by their own standards.
So you don't like people to push their morality down your throat, but since other people do it to you, you will therefore do it to people like me who never push morality down anyone's throat. Sure. That makes sense. "Do unto others before they do it unto you."
Preventive pre-strike Bible thumping.
Well let's take a guess...out of 100 God fearing Christians...the ones that want forced prayer in public schools and their superstitions on the walls of public building. How many would embrace the idea?
Not many. Not I, at least. Did someone here at AARM endorse forced prayers and religious documents on the walls of public buildings? I must have missed that. Who was it?
Whatever sin you know is wrong and yet you continue to do it. Just stop doing it. No big deal.
Oh!! OK. Man, I wish someone had told Paul that. It could have saved him the agony of Romans 7.
No, Buttons. Paul did not write the book of Exodus. You need to read it. Moses resisted God, as I said. Monotheism is hardly depicted as Moses' idea.
After you learn about the Jewish Pantheon and the history of Judaism we'll be able to better discuss it.
How so? The discussion is whether the Bible depicts God a one god or as one of many gods. Obviously from the OT, we know it's the former. Oh, and I can't find "pantheon" in a Concordance.
Again, you need to read the narrative in Exodus. Moses didn't apply anything. He even told God that he was a stutterer and the wrong guy for the job.
Sorry, but picking a history book and starting in the middle is never a good way to learn the truth.
Doesn't matter. Start at the beginning. Read Exodus backwards if you wish. You won't find any narrative about Moses "applying his own beliefs" about God's monotheism. God encountered him, not vice-versa. If all you have to say to that is "yeah, but I don't believe the Bible," OK. I already knew that.
The problem is that until 300 AD that Christianity, while having a small foollowing because it accepted women and children into it...was nothing more than a fly by night cult. It wasn't until Constantine created....
I don't give a shit about Constantine. He has zero impact on my belief.
Anyone that is a Christian worships or holds in reverence the religion that Constantine invented.
Sorry. Constantine did not "invent" Christianity. He may have invented Christendom, but even that's debatable.
I don't consider you a Christian either.
OK. I have no problem whatsoever with your not considering me a Christian. Well, unless you are one of those elders around the throne in the book of Revelations, who has the Book of Life in his hands. Then I might.
Who?? Not me. Anyone here at AARM you know doing that limiting freedom thing?
Again...just because you don't personally lynch black folk...if you proudly wear the hood and sheets...you're guilty by association.
That's pretty funny. You just said I was not a Christian, and yet I am still "guilty by association" for what you consider the bad behavior of Christians. Can I try that on you:
Hey, Buttons. Some electricians rip their customers off. I realize you're not an electrician, but you are guilty of ripping people off just the same.
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Holy Chao
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 9th, 2009 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 12th, 2009 06:46 am |
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Subject matter of "free the three" by Zao?!
Excellent Christian Heavy Metal group
By the way, Elohim refers to multiple gods or Father god (possibly) but YHWH refers to a monotheistic God by name. Sabaoth = Lord of Hosts(all).
Choose whether you wish to serve one, or many possibly conflicting gods... your choice, though eternity is a long time to be wrong, eh?
I'm absolutely, not trying to push religion down anyone's throat, but "you've got to go, if you don't want to that's alright but if you don't go now your'e gonna have to spend the night(or eternity?)"Last edited on Mon Oct 12th, 2009 07:24 am by Holy Chao
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Formerly "Prometheus" of CARM...
once a faithless heretic, being set straight by God's grace to pursue developing His freely given gifts.
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Carol2
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Mon Oct 19th, 2009 05:19 pm |
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Chao...what happened to your "s"?
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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