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WingedBeast
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 01:52 am |
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We like to believe our nation has been blessed by God. Is there really anything wrong with that?
Nothing, so long as you keep in mind that that "we" you refer to has never been the entirety of Americans and did not include the minds most responsible for framing the US Constitution.
And therein lies the issue with putting "under God" in a pledge of allegiance (however ill thought out having such a pledge is in the first place) or on our money. Those of us who do not believe in the God referred to, atheists, hindus, bhuddists, taoists, confusists, shintoists, native American animists, druids, wiccans, we're just as American as you.
And, making "under God" a motto of the US says that we aren't really Americans. Oh, we're born here or naturalize to here, we pay taxes, serve our country, vote, etc, but we're not the real Americans so long as the "real America" is "under God".
So, feel free to believe that God has blessed America. Just don't confuse that belief with what being an American means. One of the things it means is that those of us who don't believe that God exists, let alone has blessed America, are still Americans.
Yes, we have religious freedom to worship who we want, or to worship no one at all, but generally speaking, America has always been thought of as a Christian country and one where Jewish people can feel safe.
I'm going to call bullshit on that for multiple reasons.
First of all, again, the framers of the constitution didn't believe this to be a Christian country. It's worth noting that they didn't believe it to be a secular or atheistic country either. They made an ammendment to the constitution, first thing, that kept America the government out of religion in the first place, one that simultaniously garunteed an individual's right to A. take God's name in vain, B. forget the sabboth and not keep it holy, C. make and worship graven images, D. dishonor one's mother and father, E. covet thy neighbor's whatever-you-want-to-covet.
Secondly, it hasn't always been safe for Jewish people. In the early years of Hollywood, when people wrote about the evils of swarthy men, that was code for people who could be outted as Jewish, carreers ruined. And, that's not even the worst example. When there were laws on the books banning Jews from public office, they had good reason not to feel safe.
Thirdly, the only way that America could ever be considered a Christian Nation is only in the sense that that is the most populas religion at current. That's it. If you're going to make the demographic dominance the deciding factor on such descriptors, you would also have to say that America is a White Country, a Heterosexual Country, and certainly a Male Country.
If any of those concepts offend you, good, they should. Each one is something that America should not be, which is a homogenous country. Even a "Christian country where Jewish people can feel safe" is a statement of homogeneity. It's a statement of Christian homogeneity and Jewish safety dependant upon the good will of that Christian homogeneity that makes up the "real Americans".
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Carol2
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 07:02 am |
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Don't worry, WB, I believe in separation of church and state. I didn't write the pledge of allegiance, and I didn't put the "under God" part in either, but it doesn't bother me at all that it's there. 
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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Baron Vladimir Harkonnen
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 08:48 am |
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Carol2 wrote:
Don't worry, WB, I believe in separation of church and state. I didn't write the pledge of allegiance, and I didn't put the "under God" part in either, but it doesn't bother me at all that it's there.
Carol and Hype, the real problem in America is that of the global elites, the new world order, and their agenda to control the entire damn world. It's the Zionist Jew Bankers that want everything.
Edited to Add:
Nitpicking of silly stuff like the Pledge of Allegiance is part of their divide an conquer strategy. I say don't pledge allegience to the flag whether you believe America is "under God" or not. We live in the corporate state of America.
FYI: That flag that every one says is the American flag is actually a battle flag. it's technically not what the American flag is supposed to look like.Last edited on Fri Oct 30th, 2009 08:52 am by Baron Vladimir Harkonnen
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yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 02:48 pm |
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Baron Vladimir Harkonnen wrote: Carol2 wrote:
Don't worry, WB, I believe in separation of church and state. I didn't write the pledge of allegiance, and I didn't put the "under God" part in either, but it doesn't bother me at all that it's there.
Carol and Hype, the real problem in America is that of the global elites, the new world order, and their agenda to control the entire damn world. It's the Zionist Jew Bankers that want everything.
Edited to Add:
Nitpicking of silly stuff like the Pledge of Allegiance is part of their divide an conquer strategy. I say don't pledge allegience to the flag whether you believe America is "under God" or not. We live in the corporate state of America.
FYI: That flag that every one says is the American flag is actually a battle flag. it's technically not what the American flag is supposed to look like.
Ahhh so Americans have a hidden flag too, eh? We in Canada have one for quite some time. What is depicted on this flag is 9 beavers urinating on one frog.
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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WingedBeast
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 03:13 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: Don't worry, WB, I believe in separation of church and state. I didn't write the pledge of allegiance, and I didn't put the "under God" part in either, but it doesn't bother me at all that it's there.
What a way to respond to... it looks like almost nothing of what I said. Wait, no, literally nothing of what I said.
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yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 03:22 pm |
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WingedBeast wrote: Carol2 wrote: Don't worry, WB, I believe in separation of church and state. I didn't write the pledge of allegiance, and I didn't put the "under God" part in either, but it doesn't bother me at all that it's there.
What a way to respond to... it looks like almost nothing of what I said. Wait, no, literally nothing of what I said.
I am used to the non sequiturs, so I just play along with my own. It made me sad though that no one even chuckled when I said, "A stitch in nine saves times."
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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met
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 03:45 pm |
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yoki wrote:
Ahhh so Americans have a hidden flag too, eh? We in Canada have one for quite some time. What is depicted on this flag is 9 beavers urinating on one frog.
yeh, like they care ... or understand ... so that comment must've been for me, eh? ... 
and, yeh, that did make me smirk yokes 
Last edited on Fri Oct 30th, 2009 03:45 pm by met
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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Carol2
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 06:09 pm |
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WingedBeast wrote: Carol2 wrote: Don't worry, WB, I believe in separation of church and state. I didn't write the pledge of allegiance, and I didn't put the "under God" part in either, but it doesn't bother me at all that it's there.
What a way to respond to... it looks like almost nothing of what I said. Wait, no, literally nothing of what I said.
Sorry. Your post was well written and I did read all of it. The only part I felt called to respond to was the "under God" part of the pledge of allegiance. I'm sure someone else, like maybe Hype or Ronson, will take the time to dissect and address all your points.
America is a country made up of immigrants and a melting pot for sure. I think that is precisely what made us so great. What is an American? Well, an American can be anything at all. America has the policy of separating church and state and that is, of course, a necessity considering the make up of our citizens. However, the overwhelming faith majority is, and has always been, the Christian faith. Give someone the freedom to choose their own God and we're more likely to choose Christ.
____________________
The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 08:17 pm |
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met wrote: yoki wrote:
Ahhh so Americans have a hidden flag too, eh? We in Canada have one for quite some time. What is depicted on this flag is 9 beavers urinating on one frog.
yeh, like they care ... or understand ... so that comment must've been for me, eh? ...
and, yeh, that did make me smirk yokes
Yes, it was for you, and I am glad it made ya smirk.
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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Carol2
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 08:36 pm |
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Everything makes met smirk.
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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met
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 09:54 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: Everything makes met smirk.
hey Carol .... Take off, eh! ... Ya Hoser! . .. 
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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met
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 09:57 pm |
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(that's kinda, more or less, the pledge of allegiance up here, btw)
Last edited on Fri Oct 30th, 2009 10:00 pm by met
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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WingedBeast
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 01:13 am |
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Carol2 wrote: WingedBeast wrote: Carol2 wrote: Don't worry, WB, I believe in separation of church and state. I didn't write the pledge of allegiance, and I didn't put the "under God" part in either, but it doesn't bother me at all that it's there.
What a way to respond to... it looks like almost nothing of what I said. Wait, no, literally nothing of what I said.
Sorry. Your post was well written and I did read all of it. The only part I felt called to respond to was the "under God" part of the pledge of allegiance. I'm sure someone else, like maybe Hype or Ronson, will take the time to dissect and address all your points.
You didn't really respond to the "under God" part. Because, I specifically stated the issue with that, and it was the same issue as your repeated claim that this is a Christian Nation. You didn't so much respond to what I wrote as you did to the fact that I disagreed at all. To the best I could see, it was a thoughtless response, one that was functionally equivilant to no response at all.
I don't need you to disect all my points, or to respond at all. But, if you do, actually responding to what I wrote makes a difference.
America is a country made up of immigrants and a melting pot for sure. I think that is precisely what made us so great. What is an American? Well, an American can be anything at all. America has the policy of separating church and state and that is, of course, a necessity considering the make up of our citizens. However, the overwhelming faith majority is, and has always been, the Christian faith. Give someone the freedom to choose their own God and we're more likely to choose Christ.
The majority religion has been Christian. Bare in mind, there's also been a majority race, a majority political position, a majority sexuality. The great thing about America is that, if the majority religion changes to Wicca, this won't be a Wiccan Nation, if it turns to Islam, this won't be a Muslim Nation. If it turns to faithless, th is won't be an atheistic nation.
But, both "in God we Trust", "Under God", and "this is a Christian Nation" all go to say that, if you're not a Christian, you're less American than the rest.
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Carol2
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 06:10 am |
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WingedBeast wrote: But, both "in God we Trust", "Under God", and "this is a Christian Nation" all go to say that, if you're not a Christian, you're less American than the rest. Well...maybe you are!
____________________
The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 01:49 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: WingedBeast wrote: But, both "in God we Trust", "Under God", and "this is a Christian Nation" all go to say that, if you're not a Christian, you're less American than the rest. Well...maybe you are!
Gitchi Manitou frowns on Carol.
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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Carol2
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 05:50 pm |
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Nuh uh. Gitchi Manitou frowns on you!
____________________
The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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Carol2
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 05:51 pm |
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met wrote: Carol2 wrote: Everything makes met smirk.
hey Carol .... Take off, eh! ... Ya Hoser! . ..
How old are you again?
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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WingedBeast
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 07:07 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: WingedBeast wrote: But, both "in God we Trust", "Under God", and "this is a Christian Nation" all go to say that, if you're not a Christian, you're less American than the rest. Well...maybe you are!
And here we have a moment of honesty. It's a moment of being honestly bigoted, but it's a moment of honesty. It's also a moment of being honestly wrong, but it's a moment of honesty.
Because, whenever anybody says that America is a Christian Nation, whether they hide this behind the majority religion at the moment or the majority religion at the time of foundation or some random quotes either taken out of context or just plain made up, they're actually saying that only the Christians are the True Americans and the rest are here on sufferage.
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met
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 07:44 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: met wrote: Carol2 wrote: Everything makes met smirk.
hey Carol .... Take off, eh! ... Ya Hoser! . ..
How old are you again?
watch it! . .. don't insult my fuggin' national cultural-icons...
(don't u realize people can't make it without their metanarratives to keep them from feeling so fuggin' small and insignificant? )
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 07:58 pm |
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WingedBeast wrote: ...only the Christians are the True Americans and the rest are here on sufferage.
... which includes First Nations' people apparently, that is, are not true Americans if they hold to their old ways and religion. Is the irony metre broken yet?
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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