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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 06:14 am |
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So, it probably comes as no surprise to anyone that I don't support having children recite the pledge of allegiance. I don't think it's right for a country with freedom of religion to be formalize a slogan that clearly shows preferential treatment for one category of religions over all the rest - but that isn't even my real problem with it.
My real problem with it is that it's a nationalistic slogan. You know, nationalism, patriotism's ugly stepbrother. Patriotism is where you say "I love my country." Nationalism is where you say "I love my country so much I'll kill everyone who isn't part of my country if my country wants me to, oh please say you want me to, country."
And standing up and pledging your allegiance to the country in unison is far more nationalistic than it is patriotic. You want patriotism? Take a trip to the grand canyon and take in the scenery. Want nationalism? Chant about pledging allegiance to the flag.
What really surprises me is that the fiercest supporters of the Pledge tend to be Christians. Do you really want your children pledging their allegiance to an authority other than God? Basically, you're promising to obey the country unquestioningly. What if the country told you to stop attending church? Would you obey? Would you go back on your word? If you're planning in advance to go back on your word in that case, why give your word at all?
And besides, didn't Jesus have something to say about serving two masters? I could have sworn Jesus had something to say about serving two masters...
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Pastor Ed Kalnins
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 07:27 am |
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Silly, we Christians only believe that the pledge is manditory when said along with the pledge to the Christian Flag!
I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag, and to the Savior, for whose kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hah7YjzDkXI
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Pastor Ed Kalnins
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 07:29 am |
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BTW, we only pledge allegiance to the CORRECT Christian Flag!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RquGbGt3qJs&feature=related
Last edited on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 07:30 am by Pastor Ed Kalnins
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yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 02:41 pm |
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AyHyperbole wrote: So, it probably comes as no surprise to anyone that I don't support having children recite the pledge of allegiance. I don't think it's right for a country with freedom of religion to be formalize a slogan that clearly shows preferential treatment for one category of religions over all the rest - but that isn't even my real problem with it.
My real problem with it is that it's a nationalistic slogan. You know, nationalism, patriotism's ugly stepbrother. Patriotism is where you say "I love my country." Nationalism is where you say "I love my country so much I'll kill everyone who isn't part of my country if my country wants me to, oh please say you want me to, country."
And standing up and pledging your allegiance to the country in unison is far more nationalistic than it is patriotic. You want patriotism? Take a trip to the grand canyon and take in the scenery. Want nationalism? Chant about pledging allegiance to the flag.
What really surprises me is that the fiercest supporters of the Pledge tend to be Christians. Do you really want your children pledging their allegiance to an authority other than God? Basically, you're promising to obey the country unquestioningly. What if the country told you to stop attending church? Would you obey? Would you go back on your word? If you're planning in advance to go back on your word in that case, why give your word at all?
And besides, didn't Jesus have something to say about serving two masters? I could have sworn Jesus had something to say about serving two masters...
At least pledging allegiance to one's country is pledging allegiance to something real. Since some Christian US patriots make the following association: America is God and God is America, ... well, doesn't that explain some things?
Maybe the Jehovah's Witnesses have the right idea in that they refuse to pledge allegiances to any nation, and other fringe religious groups maintain the same stanch as well. However, the JW's have all the wrong theology, so what the hell do they know, eh?
____________________
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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Carol2
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 07:51 pm |
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Well, it was revised in 1954. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Amen.
____________________
The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 09:12 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: Well, it was revised in 1954. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Amen.
Yeah, but is that the RIGHT god being referred to here?
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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Pastor Ed Kalnins
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 09:14 pm |
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Every morning, my wife recites the Pledge of Allegiance to the Husband.
If you are a happily married Christian couple, and want to stay that way, I would advise you to do the same.
I pledge allegiance to my Husband, my leader, according to God's Holy Word,
so that I may serve him according to His plan.
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 10:03 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: Well, it was revised in 1954. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Amen.
Sure. But Christians believe everything is "under God," right? I'm "under God." Would you pledge allegiance to me?
Maybe the words "under God" are meant to imply that if you pledge allegiance to the nation, you're also pledging allegiance to God - but that just strikes me as twisted. That would be exactly what Yoki was talking about: the belief that the U.S. and God are essentially the same thing.
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Evelyn
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 10:19 pm |
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The whole idea of pledging loyalty to an inanimate object is somewhere between silly and sacrilege, in my opinion.
The origins of the thing are particularly silly, and I don't have any idea why Christians go along with this nonsense:
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist, and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). Harris' original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8th issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America. The event was conceived by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, in a campaign to sell American flags and American nationalism to public school
When I am in a situation in which the pledge is being said (Board of Trustee meetings at my public college, mainly), I stand up, bow my head, and maintain my silence. I respect people's choice to say these words, but I don't want to say them because:
I don't owe allegiance to a piece of cloth.
I don't see this as being a nation that is somehow specially "under God." (I don't know what that phrase is supposed to mean, even. Is China "under God"? Is Haiti? Why or why not? Is it saying that our government is or that it ought to be subject to some specific interpretation of God's will or God's words? That seems untrue to me.)
The "liberty and justice for all" part seems more aspirational than operational.
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 10:45 pm |
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Evelyn wrote: The whole idea of pledging loyalty to an inanimate object is somewhere between silly and sacrilege, in my opinion.
The origins of the thing are particularly silly, and I don't have any idea why Christians go along with this nonsense:
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist, and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). Harris' original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8th issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America. The event was conceived by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, in a campaign to sell American flags and American nationalism to public school
When I am in a situation in which the pledge is being said (Board of Trustee meetings at my public college, mainly), I stand up, bow my head, and maintain my silence. I respect people's choice to say these words, but I don't want to say them because:
I don't owe allegiance to a piece of cloth.
I don't see this as being a nation that is somehow specially "under God." (I don't know what that phrase is supposed to mean, even. Is China "under God"? Is Haiti? Why or why not? Is it saying that our government is or that it ought to be subject to some specific interpretation of God's will or God's words? That seems untrue to me.)
The "liberty and justice for all" part seems more aspirational than operational.
I agree with you that much of it has very little meaning.
But, I think in its simplest possible form, it means this: "I promise my absolute loyalty to the government of the United States of America."
And - do I? Not really. Absolute loyalty is a feature of a monarchy or despotism, not of a democracy. And there are many things I place more value on than "our government continuing in its current form."
What shocks me is how much overlap there seems to be between the groups saying "Protect the Pledge!!" and the groups quoting Thomas Jefferson about the necessity of revolution.
Those "tea parties" seem to have a healthy helping of both groups; perhaps some of them are exactly the same people.
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limana
Supercalafragalistic Limana
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Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2009 10:51 pm |
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When I came to the US, I had no clue that a modern secular country would have its children recite a pledge reminiscent of Nazi Germany and Communist countries. Vera, my daughter, was taught those words in kindergarten and said them just as all the other kids would. That's when I had to explain to her what her pledge meant: Should it ever come to a conflict between Germany and the US again, she promised to take the side of the US, no matter who is right or wrong. I left it up to her to decide if she was willing to promise that. She immediately stopped saying the pledge and got snide remarks from more than one of her teachers. But she countered that she was German and that her allegiance was what her conscience told her, not the American flag. I was proud of her and didn't even have to talk to her about the "under god" part. She will stand up in silence, but she will not make any supporting gesture.
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- Hyperbole 3/10/2009
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Jew that says Meh!
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Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 06:21 am |
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| Meh,....
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Slim
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Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 06:30 am |
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| I pledge allegiance to hot fudge sundaes!
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Carol2
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Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 08:18 am |
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AyHyperbole wrote: Carol2 wrote: Well, it was revised in 1954. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Amen.
Sure. But Christians believe everything is "under God," right? I'm "under God." Would you pledge allegiance to me?
Maybe the words "under God" are meant to imply that if you pledge allegiance to the nation, you're also pledging allegiance to God - but that just strikes me as twisted. That would be exactly what Yoki was talking about: the belief that the U.S. and God are essentially the same thing.
We are pledging allegiance to the nation who is under God.
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 11:24 am |
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Carol2 wrote: AyHyperbole wrote: Carol2 wrote: Well, it was revised in 1954. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Amen.
Sure. But Christians believe everything is "under God," right? I'm "under God." Would you pledge allegiance to me?
Maybe the words "under God" are meant to imply that if you pledge allegiance to the nation, you're also pledging allegiance to God - but that just strikes me as twisted. That would be exactly what Yoki was talking about: the belief that the U.S. and God are essentially the same thing.
We are pledging allegiance to the nation who is under God.
Well sure....so long as you ignore the fact that the US is an entirely secular nation that is not, in fact, under god at all.
Just look at it this way: how many of the ten commandments are actually illegal? How many are actually rights protected under the Constitution?
-- A2SG, and, for extra credit....how many are utterly and completely ignored.....
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yoki
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Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 12:42 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: AyHyperbole wrote: Carol2 wrote: Well, it was revised in 1954. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Amen.
Sure. But Christians believe everything is "under God," right? I'm "under God." Would you pledge allegiance to me?
Maybe the words "under God" are meant to imply that if you pledge allegiance to the nation, you're also pledging allegiance to God - but that just strikes me as twisted. That would be exactly what Yoki was talking about: the belief that the U.S. and God are essentially the same thing.
We are pledging allegiance to the nation who is under God.
That sounds so divine rightish and manifest destinyish.
If the USA is under god, then my signature line becomes even more appropriate.
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 03:52 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: AyHyperbole wrote: Carol2 wrote: Well, it was revised in 1954. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Amen.
Sure. But Christians believe everything is "under God," right? I'm "under God." Would you pledge allegiance to me?
Maybe the words "under God" are meant to imply that if you pledge allegiance to the nation, you're also pledging allegiance to God - but that just strikes me as twisted. That would be exactly what Yoki was talking about: the belief that the U.S. and God are essentially the same thing.
We are pledging allegiance to the nation who is under God.
The only one?
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Carol2
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 06:23 pm |
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We like to believe our nation has been blessed by God. Is there really anything wrong with that? Yes, we have religious freedom to worship who we want, or to worship no one at all, but generally speaking, America has always been thought of as a Christian country and one where Jewish people can feel safe.
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 06:58 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: We like to believe our nation has been blessed by God. Is there really anything wrong with that? Yes, we have religious freedom to worship who we want, or to worship no one at all, but generally speaking, America has always been thought of as a Christian country and one where Jewish people can feel safe.
What does it mean for a nation to have been blessed by God? Does it mean that God gives preferential treatment to the United States over other nations? Does it mean that God intends to save more souls from the United States than from other nations?
Has God blessed the United States to the exclusion of all other nations? If you cross the border from Seattle into Vancouver, have you just driven from "God-blessed" into "God-forsaken"?
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yoki
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Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 07:15 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: We like to believe our nation has been blessed by God. Is there really anything wrong with that? Yes, we have religious freedom to worship who we want, or to worship no one at all, but generally speaking, America has always been thought of as a Christian country and one where Jewish people can feel safe.
There is nothing wrong with BELIEVING that one's nation has been blessed by god. It is when patriots of such a nation actually take action according to that belief, is when shit happens.
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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