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Aldaron
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 01:34 am |
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Hiram and Stiggy will get apopleptic reading it, so it's probably worthwhile...
The Christian Paradox: How a faithful nation gets Jesus wrong
A lot of it's aim can be summed up by this quote:
A rich man came to Jesus one day and asked what he should do to get into heaven. Jesus did not say he should invest, spend, and let the benefits trickle down; he said sell what you have, give the money to the poor, and follow me. Few plainer words have been spoken. And yet, for some reason, the Christian Coalition of America—founded in 1989 in order to “preserve, protect and defend the Judeo-Christian values that made this the greatest country in history”—proclaimed last year that its top legislative priority would be “making permanent President Bush's 2001 federal tax cuts.”
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NorrinRadd
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 12:52 pm |
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Aldaron wrote: Hiram and Stiggy will get apopleptic reading it, so it's probably worthwhile...
The Christian Paradox: How a faithful nation gets Jesus wrong
A lot of it's aim can be summed up by this quote:
A rich man came to Jesus one day and asked what he should do to get into heaven. Jesus did not say he should invest, spend, and let the benefits trickle down; he said sell what you have, give the money to the poor, and follow me. Few plainer words have been spoken. ”
And yet He also "plainly" said in Mark 7 that we're to care for our families, and to not use "serving God" as an excuse to the contrary. If we took His words to one guy to be universal, we have a bit of a conflict. He also rather plainly and repeatedly endorsed the OT Scriptures, which includes the Prov. 13:22 teaching that a "good" man will leave an inheritance even to his GRANDchildren.
And while He did not tell that particular guy to invest, spend, trickle down, etc., He did elsewhere when speaking more generally endorse wise investment, saying such nice capitalistic things as, "to him who has, more will be given, to the point of abundance; but from the one who has not, even what little he does have will be taken away." I think that was His version of, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
And yet, for some reason, the Christian Coalition of America—founded in 1989 in order to “preserve, protect and defend the Judeo-Christian values that made this the greatest country in history”—proclaimed last year that its top legislative priority would be “making permanent President Bush's 2001 federal tax cuts."
Right. Because the less money stolen by the IRS, the more can be given in following Jesus' exhortations to generosity. OTOH, if we take His instructions to the one guy literally and universally, then the "tax" thing would be moot, because we would have nothing left to tax, and in fact would have to jump onto the public dole for support.
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Aldaron
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 03:07 pm |
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NorrinRadd wrote: Aldaron wrote: Hiram and Stiggy will get apopleptic reading it, so it's probably worthwhile...
The Christian Paradox: How a faithful nation gets Jesus wrong
A lot of it's aim can be summed up by this quote:
A rich man came to Jesus one day and asked what he should do to get into heaven. Jesus did not say he should invest, spend, and let the benefits trickle down; he said sell what you have, give the money to the poor, and follow me. Few plainer words have been spoken. ”
And yet He also "plainly" said in Mark 7 that we're to care for our families, and to not use "serving God" as an excuse to the contrary. If we took His words to one guy to be universal, we have a bit of a conflict. He also rather plainly and repeatedly endorsed the OT Scriptures, which includes the Prov. 13:22 teaching that a "good" man will leave an inheritance even to his GRANDchildren.
And while He did not tell that particular guy to invest, spend, trickle down, etc., He did elsewhere when speaking more generally endorse wise investment, saying such nice capitalistic things as, "to him who has, more will be given, to the point of abundance; but from the one who has not, even what little he does have will be taken away." I think that was His version of, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
And yet, for some reason, the Christian Coalition of America—founded in 1989 in order to “preserve, protect and defend the Judeo-Christian values that made this the greatest country in history”—proclaimed last year that its top legislative priority would be “making permanent President Bush's 2001 federal tax cuts."
Right. Because the less money stolen by the IRS, the more can be given in following Jesus' exhortations to generosity. OTOH, if we take His instructions to the one guy literally and universally, then the "tax" thing would be moot, because we would have nothing left to tax, and in fact would have to jump onto the public dole for support.
Yet as the article points out, so-called "Christian" America already gives a pissingly small amount to charity in comparison with just about everyone else - especially in comparison with the so-called "godless" nations like Norway and Sweden.
I guess you're too busy wringing your hands over all those faggots getting it on with each other and ruining the sanctity of your marriages...because a 50% divorce rate among Protestant Christians certainly has no effect on that...
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met
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 03:15 pm |
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Right. Because the less money stolen by the IRS, the more can be given in following Jesus' exhortations to generosity. OTOH, if we take His instructions to the one guy literally and universally, then the "tax" thing would be moot, because we would have nothing left to tax, and in fact would have to jump onto the public dole for support
u would?  . . . gee, if u gave away what u got stored up in the bank, couldn't u just live on what u earn as u go, like most other people in the world? . . . and thus follow Christ's exhotations
"behold the sparrows. ." etc etc
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o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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met
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 03:31 pm |
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NorrinRadd wrote
And while He did not tell that particular guy to invest, spend, trickle down, etc., He did elsewhere when speaking more generally endorse wise investment, saying such nice capitalistic things as, "to him who has, more will be given, to the point of abundance; but from the one who has not, even what little he does have will be taken away." I think that was His version of, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
He truly did ' endorse wise investment'  like this...
"where your heart is, there your treasure is also ... "
i.e. if you choose to invest yourself and/or your efforts in the world, u will end up with the appropriate rewards . . .
amazing that people can claim to follow a "guru" who was born in a barn and illegally put to death by a collusion between religious and secular authorities and still expect to 'win' at those other games too
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“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
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o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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Aldaron
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 03:36 pm |
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I think that was His version of, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
I don't. I think he was referring to faith and love of God. Those who have faith will be rewarded with more, while those who do not will fall away from it.
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Aldaron
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 03:41 pm |
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Wayne is actually demonstrating precisely what the author of the article was saying: that Christians simply aren't prepared to do what Jesus told them to do, plain and simple.
Because it's too tough. So they wheedle out of it, they argue that Jesus didn't really mean that the rich have a harder time getting into heaven than camels have going through the eyes of needles, that he didn't really mean sell your stuff, give it to the poor and follow him, he didn't really mean that married couples shouldn't get divorced, or that whatsoever you do unto the least of his brethren, you do unto him, and he didn't really mean turn the other cheek.
He really meant live your life as you like, claim adherence to his principles, and buy your way into heaven.
The irony is that Protestantism was founded because Luther was pissed off with the Church selling indulgences...modern Christianity is no different.
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met
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 03:42 pm |
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Aldaron wrote: I think that was His version of, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
I don't. I think he was referring to faith and love of God. Those who have faith will be rewarded with more, while those who do not will fall away from it.
yes, one expect Christ to be talking about things that actually MATTERED. .. in the longer run
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-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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met
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 03:55 pm |
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Aldaron wrote: Wayne is actually demonstrating precisely what the author of the article was saying: that Christians simply aren't prepared to do what Jesus told them to do, plain and simple.
Because it's too tough. So they wheedle out of it, they argue that Jesus didn't really mean that the rich have a harder time getting into heaven than camels have going through the eyes of needles, that he didn't really mean sell your stuff, give it to the poor and follow him, he didn't really mean that married couples shouldn't get divorced, or that whatsoever you do unto the least of his brethren, you do unto him, and he didn't really mean turn the other cheek.
He really meant live your life as you like, claim adherence to his principles, and buy your way into heaven.
The irony is that Protestantism was founded because Luther was pissed off with the Church selling indulgences...modern Christianity is no different.
Max Weber wrote a book in the 40's ( i think) in which he examined the arrangements between the capitalists and the Protestants that took place very early in the Reformation. .. it' was basically like this, according to him...
SOMEONE had to underwrite the Reformation, otherwise Luther and Calvin, etc would have ended up being toasted in RCC fires very quickly. It turned out to be the merchant class, and the emerging power of money, that provided them with worldly protection. Then - as if in payback - the idea that a big fat bank account is a sure sign of God's election comes to the fore very early in the Protestant movement . . . even tho the Reformers are supposedly all about the Bible and that's a phenomenally unBiblical idea. And it seems to me like people like Norrin have been trying to harumph and talk their way vaguely around many of Christ's, and most of the other NT writers, plain assertions ever since
(well, i already said all that before, and i don't want to sound like i'm kicking a dead horse but . . .maybe it's worth repeating)
Last edited on Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:13 pm by met
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“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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Carol2
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:15 pm |
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| I don't know if this is on topic or not, but I am SICK of seeing the food stamp recipients in line at the cash registers with 3-4 overflowing carts of food. I've never in my life spent $800 on food in one shopping trip, but I'm just a working stiff. What do I know? At least I don't have to contend with obesity like most of the food stamps recipients I see.
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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yoki
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:25 pm |
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Christian fundamentalism has never been about Christ's teachings. It has always been about St. Paul's letters, and the theology and teachings therein. Paul would make allusions to the OT like not to muzzle an ox when it is working to justify suitable compensation being given to workers who taught "Christ." He would also use the OT to further his alleged revelation about how evil men really were when he quoted a list of proof text out of Psalms, completely out of context.
It is apparent Paul was quite unfamiliar with the bulk of Christ's teachings, but rather, what Paul preached was Christ, and not what Christ taught - big difference, but much too subtle and abstract for your average fundie.
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Carol2
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:31 pm |
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| Paul taught grace and forgiveness...the stuff Jesus accomplished by dying on the cross.
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met
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:31 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: I don't know if this is on topic or not, but I am SICK of seeing the food stamp recipients in line at the cash registers with 3-4 overflowing carts of food. I've never in my life spent $800 on food in one shopping trip, but I'm just a working stiff. What do I know? At least I don't have to contend with obesity like most of the food stamps recipients I see.
well, if even poor people in yor country are fat, maybe u all should try to give more away. . . maybe for the 40,000 or so children who still starve to death everyday in the world. . .
Last edited on Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:31 pm by met
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“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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Carol2
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:35 pm |
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| My taxes feed those people and they're going to go up even more. Who have you fed today?
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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met
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:45 pm |
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yoki wrote: Christian fundamentalism has never been about Christ's teachings. It has always been about St. Paul's letters, and the theology and teachings therein. Paul would make allusions to the OT like not to muzzle an ox when it is working to justify suitable compensation being given to workers who taught "Christ." He would also use the OT to further his alleged revelation about how evil men really were when he quoted a list of proof text out of Psalms, completely out of context.
I think it's true that Protestantism is kinda Pauline,since that's where Luther found 'his' Gospel... but its weird too, since they also assert you have to believe this OTHER guy (ie Christ) was actually God Incarnate, and NOT ANYTHING less than that, to make it to heaven. . .
otoh they seem far LESS interested in what Christ had to say than in what Pual said, even tho they'll agree Paul was. . . only human and much less than God Incarnate
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“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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manonfire
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:51 pm |
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Carol2 wrote:
I don't know if this is on topic or not, but I am SICK of seeing the food stamp recipients in line at the cash registers with 3-4 overflowing carts of food. I've never in my life spent $800 on food in one shopping trip, but I'm just a working stiff. What do I know? At least I don't have to contend with obesity like most of the food stamps recipients I see.
That's right, Carol. This is nothing more than the result of liberal "compassion." Or, let's keep the niggers on the plantation mentality by keeping them dependent upon white elitist liberals...better known as the democrat party.
You betcha! Encourage then to breed, while we feed.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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met
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:52 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: My taxes feed those people and they're going to go up even more. Who have you fed today?
geez, you're defensive .. . there's no need for that . .
its not about guilt, its about living a real life ... i'm only suggesting maybe some peeps could open up abit , get OUT there, in the fray, and find out what they (and God) are made of. . . and maybe they'll even GROW a little . . .
( otoh. . . just remember what Zedd the Wizard said in the Sword of Truth series: "An adventure's when you're scared to death, and pretty certain you're going to die"....)
Last edited on Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:52 pm by met
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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manonfire
Manofire
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:53 pm |
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| Let's rob Paul to pay Peter. That way, Peter will always vote for us. The Democrat Way.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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Carol2
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:54 pm |
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met wrote: Carol2 wrote: My taxes feed those people and they're going to go up even more. Who have you fed today?
geez, you're defensive .. . there's no need for that . .
its not about guilt, its about living a real life ... i'm only suggesting maybe some peeps could open up abit , get OUT there, in the fray, and find out what they (and God) are made of. . . and maybe they'll even GROW a little . . .
( otoh. . . just remember what Zedd the Wizard said in the Sword of Truth series: "An adventure's when you're scared to death, and pretty certain you're going to die"....)
Interpreter please.
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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manonfire
Manofire
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:56 pm |
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met wrote:
Carol2 wrote: My taxes feed those people and they're going to go up even more. Who have you fed today?
geez, you're defensive .. . there's no need for that . .
its not about guilt, its about living a real life ... i'm only suggesting maybe some peeps could open up abit , get OUT there, in the fray, and find out what they (and God) are made of. . . and maybe they'll even GROW a little . . .
( otoh. . . just remember what Zedd the Wizard said in the Sword of Truth series: "An adventure's when you're scared to death, and pretty certain you're going to die"....)
More psychobabble coming from a liberal. *yawn*
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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