 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
|
Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 01:35 am |
|
List those things that God will never know.
For instance, excluding the account in Genesis, God will never know what it feels like to make a mistake. Right?
Now come up with your own, and let us prove that God really can't be omniscient, if ya dare. You can even suggest God never knowing Eros, even though they might have bumped into oneanother on Mt. Olympus.
Last edited on Thu Sep 10th, 2009 04:24 am by yoki
____________________
____________________
When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
|
yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
|
Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 01:50 am |
|
Beating Belvedere to the punch, God will never know what it is like to have sausage, with or without, gravy.
____________________
____________________
When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
|
Richard Simmons
Belvedere
| Joined: | Wed Mar 11th, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 151 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: |  |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 05:22 am |
|
Ahhhhhuhhhhhhummmmmmm,...
hello
there
yoki.
____________________
Never say DIEt!
|
yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
|
Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 02:47 pm |
|
Richard Simmons wrote: Ahhhhhuhhhhhhummmmmmm,...
hello
there
yoki.
____________________
____________________
When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
|
Ronson
Ronson
| Joined: | Sun Aug 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1499 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: |   |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 05:42 pm |
|
I don't believe proponents of omniscience claim God knows absolutely, positively everything that can ever be known. It is a qualified omniscience.
Does God know what it is like to enjoy doing evil? If he did then that would equate to God enjoying doing evil, otherwise he would not enjoy the knowledge.
Does God know what it's like to be Yoki? I don't believe this is possible because there is only one Yoki and that slot is filled by Yoki. It might be possible for God to experience all that Yoki experiences, or to understand or feel all that Yoki feels, but only one being can ever know what it is like to be a unique being, and you are that unique being. If this is compromised then you are no longer unique.
Lastly, can God know what it is like to have never existed? This would be asking God to experience what cannot be experienced, because non existence is a lack of experience.
|
yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
|
Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 06:46 pm |
|
Ronson wrote: I don't believe proponents of omniscience claim God knows absolutely, positively everything that can ever be known. It is a qualified omniscience.
Does God know what it is like to enjoy doing evil? If he did then that would equate to God enjoying doing evil, otherwise he would not enjoy the knowledge.
Does God know what it's like to be Yoki? I don't believe this is possible because there is only one Yoki and that slot is filled by Yoki. It might be possible for God to experience all that Yoki experiences, or to understand or feel all that Yoki feels, but only one being can ever know what it is like to be a unique being, and you are that unique being. If this is compromised then you are no longer unique.
Lastly, can God know what it is like to have never existed? This would be asking God to experience what cannot be experienced, because non existence is a lack of experience.
"Qualified omniscience" is a contradictory term, Ronson. Omniscience is an absolute. Can there be such a thing as "qualified pregnacy"? A woman is either pregnant or she is not pregnant. God is either omniscient, or he is not omniscient. Besides, as far as Christian theology goes from a Biblical point of view, there really is no indication whatsoever that God is omniscient. In fact, there is very clear indication that he is not. The concept of omnisicience comes from pagan sources as applied to God - from the cradle of western civilization, that is, the Greeks.
____________________
____________________
When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
|
Ronson
Ronson
| Joined: | Sun Aug 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1499 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 06:53 pm |
|
I realize omniscience means "all knowing." But I say it's qualified because "omniscience" is the closest term to fit. Otherwise people would have to say something like "God knows everything that can be known within reason, which includes (xxx) context and excludes (xxx) context ... (etc.)." It's easier to simply misuse "omniscience." Actually, the same qualifiers should apply to omnipotence as well.
As to the origins of God's omni powers, I agree. I don't remember reading anything in scripture which assigns these to God. But relative to mankind, they are a safe assumption.
Last edited on Thu Sep 10th, 2009 06:54 pm by Ronson
|
yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
|
Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 08:04 pm |
|
Ronson wrote: I realize omniscience means "all knowing." But I say it's qualified because "omniscience" is the closest term to fit. Otherwise people would have to say something like "God knows everything that can be known within reason, which includes (xxx) context and excludes (xxx) context ... (etc.)." It's easier to simply misuse "omniscience." Actually, the same qualifiers should apply to omnipotence as well.
As to the origins of God's omni powers, I agree. I don't remember reading anything in scripture which assigns these to God. But relative to mankind, they are a safe assumption.
But let us suppose that God truly were omniscient. Let us suppose, given the examples you gave previously, that God really did know what it was like to be Yoki. That would be true omniscience, but I am afraid that the theological implications of such a "fact" could not be incorporated into the theological outlook of the Christian faith.
The Bible does not teach that God contains the omnis. And if it did, that would be inconsistent with what it also gives account. The god of the Bible, as clearly shown, contains none of the omni traits. God, instead, is taught to be a being, though very powerful, but one still trapped within time and space, and one who is very, very limited.
____________________
____________________
When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
|
Ronson
Ronson
| Joined: | Sun Aug 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1499 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 09:57 pm |
|
yoki wrote: But let us suppose that God truly were omniscient. Let us suppose, given the examples you gave previously, that God really did know what it was like to be Yoki. That would be true omniscience, but I am afraid that the theological implications of such a "fact" could not be incorporated into the theological outlook of the Christian faith.
IMO, you are correct. A literal omniscience would be inconsistent with several other facets of Christianity.
The Bible does not teach that God contains the omnis. And if it did, that would be inconsistent with what it also gives account. The god of the Bible, as clearly shown, contains none of the omni traits. God, instead, is taught to be a being, though very powerful, but one still trapped within time and space, and one who is very, very limited.
There are apologists who argue that any question God poses in the Bible (like the many found in Genesis 3) are rhetorical; that God already knew the answers but was putting Adam and Eve to the test. If Genesis 3 were a literal account, I would agree that God knew those answers. It would be like asking your child with chocolate all over his face if he had been into the cookie jar. You are allowing your child the opportunity to answer honestly or not.
But since i do not consider Genesis to contain very much literal history, as opposed to allegory, my objections to a strict omniscience are based on those theological contradictions you speak of.
|
PearlsSand2
Dialogue Facilitator
| Joined: | Wed Jun 25th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 1250 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 11:48 pm |
|
I am one who does take the Genesis account literally and also find that in matters having to do with "sin" that the Lord must have experienced some kind of serious dis-connect with man, and even had to hear of certain acts/see it for Himself, before even a judgment, on His part, would take place.
Why? There simply is -no sin- in God. God never misses God's own standard. God is purely good. The only moment in time that the Lord *actually experienced, for Himself, the *sin in this world, was on the cross. Until then, sin itself, I tend to believe, was something *outside of His very being. Yes, He knew of *it, and all its consequences to man even prior to His own death on the cross. Even warned man that in the day he would eat, he would surely be dying the death.
I'm just about an all-out Omni believer, leaving the biblical account of man's sins & God's knowledge of, untouched and to be as it states.
____________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkKue_MEnkk&feature=fvw
|
yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
|
Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 01:03 am |
|
So what then really is the Christian god in context with what the Bible reveals, and what is contained in Christian theology? He is as I described him: a being, though very powerful, but one still trapped within time and space, and one who is very, very limited.
Edit add: In essence, the Christian god is not the source of all being, nor being itself, but rather, he is just a being, albeit, a powerful one. It is hardly the case that the Christian god can even be called God, but he could be called a god.
Last edited on Fri Sep 11th, 2009 01:28 am by yoki
____________________
____________________
When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
|
Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
Dialogue Facilitator
| Joined: | Wed Aug 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1868 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 04:21 am |
|
If god is omniscent that it would have to mean that he does know everything.
Can god know what it's like to be yoki? Yes. Can he know what it's like to not be god? Yep. Can he know what can't be known? You bet.
Similarly, if god is omnipotent, then he most certainly can create a rock so big he can't lift it. He can also lift it.
Does this make sense? Of course not.
Who ever said god had to make sense? Especially to limited beings such as ourselves?
What's the problem some christians have with admitting they don't know everything there is to know about god? Is it because they're afraid to admit that the "personal relationship" they have with god doesn't give them the answers that mankind has been seeking for generations?
When asked a question about whether or not god is this or that, why can't they just say "I dunno"?
-- A2SG, wonder if they're afraid that would make them agnostics.....
|
Henry Sidgwick
Belvedere
| Joined: | Sat Jan 10th, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 63 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 06:59 am |
|
yoki wrote:
Edit add: In essence, the Christian god is not the source of all being, nor being itself, but rather, he is just a being, albeit, a powerful one. It is hardly the case that the Christian god can even be called God, but he could be called a god.
No, that's totally incorrect. Read Thomas Aquinas.
Although, I see you do qualify your statement with "in essence" ,,,,,
____________________
The "FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.”
--Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI
|
yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
|
Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 02:32 pm |
|
Henry Sidgwick wrote: yoki wrote:
Edit add: In essence, the Christian god is not the source of all being, nor being itself, but rather, he is just a being, albeit, a powerful one. It is hardly the case that the Christian god can even be called God, but he could be called a god.
No, that's totally incorrect. Read Thomas Aquinas.
Although, I see you do qualify your statement with "in essence" ,,,,,
Aquinas was about as Christian as was Meister Eckhart.
____________________
____________________
When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
|
yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
|
Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 02:46 pm |
|
Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote: When asked a question about whether or not god is this or that, why can't they just say "I dunno"?
Occasionally, a Christian apologeticist will say that, "I dunno." However, that is usually when they have been worn down with logical arguments in one way or other, and they themselves are intelligent and honest. But this is a rare find amongst the fundie crowd.
____________________
____________________
When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
|
Mike Warnke
Belvedere
| Joined: | Tue Jan 27th, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 11 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 04:17 pm |
|
| You're a big fat LIAR!!!!
|
yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
|
Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 04:45 pm |
|
Mike Warnke wrote: You're a big fat LIAR!!!!
I am tall, if that is considered "big." I am not at all "fat" though. And observations or opinions of people, including myself, can not be considered either a statement of truth or a statement of lying. An opinion or an observation are simply that: an opinion or an observation. If you are fundie, then I am sure the preceding has gone way over your head. 
But I know who you are... so how's it goin'?
____________________
____________________
When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
|
Ricky
Belvedere
| Joined: | Mon Aug 10th, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 05:19 am |
|
yoki wrote: But I know who you are... so how's it goin'?
I'm Happy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt-aWvS4eUA
Oh so Happy!
|
met
Dialogue Facilitator
| Joined: | Mon Aug 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1500 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Mon Sep 14th, 2009 12:03 am |
|
yoki wrote:
"Qualified omniscience" is a contradictory term, Ronson. Omniscience is an absolute.
  i think so...
otoh, people who USE these terms don't really mean them, usually not, cuz they just lead you into blind paradoxical alleys .... like, can God know about a rock so big he can't lift it?Last edited on Mon Sep 14th, 2009 12:50 am by met
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
|
yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
|
Posted: Mon Sep 14th, 2009 03:34 am |
|
met wrote: yoki wrote:
"Qualified omniscience" is a contradictory term, Ronson. Omniscience is an absolute.
i think so...
otoh, people who USE these terms don't really mean them, usually not, cuz they just lead you into blind paradoxical alleys .... like, can God know about a rock so big he can't lift it?
I see no paradox in such a concept at all. This business of god lifting rocks is more silly than a paradox. For god to lift a rock, it is assumed that god has body like a human being, with muscle sinew and bone. It is also assumed that god is subject to gravity, for that is what gives a rock, with its mass, a weight. However, for fundies, who see god as a big powerful human being, sitting somewhere up in the clouds on a throne with a left and right side of the throne, this business about god lifting rocks is a real mind bender for them. So they assign it a big word (paradox) that they learned from folks who taught them about another big word, "context."
____________________
____________________
When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
|
Current time is 04:17 pm | Page: 1 2 3 4   |
|
|
|
|
