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yoki
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Posted: Sat Sep 26th, 2009 02:26 am |
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AyHyperbole wrote: yoki wrote: met wrote: Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote: met wrote: _Ammon_ wrote: But the common definition of God includes omnipotence and omniscience, so I'd say if you're not talking those you're not talking God as most people understand the word. 
but does the common definitions of omnipotence and omniscience include everything, or just more like "everything possible?"
Dictionary.com defines omnipotence as: almighty or infinite in power, as God.
No qualifications there.
Besides...
Matthew 19:26: Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
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But Christ is speaking in the vernacular, not like a analytic philosopher ... so you're beggin' my point!
... and, btw, infinities don't include EVERYTHING, as some Pythagorean discovered to his chagrin ... amof, in set theory, NO infinity includes everything, cuz there's always another, bigger infinity beyond that one
"Infinities" have a habit of containing themselves, as does the present Universe in which we find ourselves.
Well, that's one of the great paradoxical questions:
Which are there more of, whole numbers or even numbers?
But the very concept of a "number" is an abstract. They exist only as symbols. To suggest a possibility of endless numbers should bring about the question: "Ah, but do you mean arabic or Roman numerals?"
Perhaps the only limitation within our Universe is imagination. Beyond that, there is only no-thing.
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Posted: Sat Sep 26th, 2009 04:07 am |
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met wrote: Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote: met wrote: _Ammon_ wrote: But the common definition of God includes omnipotence and omniscience, so I'd say if you're not talking those you're not talking God as most people understand the word.
but does the common definitions of omnipotence and omniscience include everything, or just more like "everything possible?"
Dictionary.com defines omnipotence as: almighty or infinite in power, as God.
No qualifications there.
Besides...
Matthew 19:26: Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
But Christ is speaking in the vernacular, not like a analytic philosopher ... so you're beggin' my point!
Well, he didn't qualify that statement, so I have to take it to mean what it says: all things are possible. If he meant to say "with god, all possible things are possible" he should have phrased it that way.
... and, btw, infinities don't include EVERYTHING, as some Pythagorean discovered to his chagrin ... amof, in set theory, NO infinity includes everything, cuz there's always another, bigger infinity beyond that one
In geometry, a "line" is infinite, stretching off in two directions.
A "ray" is infinite as well, it just only goes in one direction.
So, there's infinity and half of infinity. With both being infinite.
-- A2SG, don't forget, I never said this stuff made sense.....
Last edited on Sat Sep 26th, 2009 07:34 am by Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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met
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Posted: Sat Sep 26th, 2009 06:26 pm |
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote:
But Christ is speaking in the vernacular, not like a analytic philosopher ... so you're beggin' my point!
Well, he didn't qualify that statement, so I have to take it to mean what it says: all things are possible. If he meant to say "with god, all possible things are possible" he should have phrased it that way.
if he was talking to analytic philosophers he should'a (and maybe would'a) phrased it that way ... otherwise, given the regular-Joe working-class-type people he was talking to at the time, most of them would have just gone like,'''huh WTF?? "... if he'd phrased it like that 
... and maybe that's why he told stories instead. .. many of which are actually kinda twisty
Last edited on Sat Sep 26th, 2009 06:28 pm by met
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Posted: Mon Sep 28th, 2009 03:27 am |
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met wrote: Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote:
But Christ is speaking in the vernacular, not like a analytic philosopher ... so you're beggin' my point!
Well, he didn't qualify that statement, so I have to take it to mean what it says: all things are possible. If he meant to say "with god, all possible things are possible" he should have phrased it that way.
if he was talking to analytic philosophers he should'a (and maybe would'a) phrased it that way ... otherwise, given the regular-Joe working-class-type people he was talking to at the time, most of them would have just gone like,'''huh WTF?? "... if he'd phrased it like that
I'm sure. Because it makes no sense.
Even if you're speaking in the vernacular, why would you say something like "with god, all things are possible" if you don't mean to say god can do impossible things.
Also, the bible clearly contradicts the idea. Does creating the entire world, universe, animals, etc. come under the heading "everything possible"? Does creating man in your own image? How about women from a man's rib?
Seems to me that stuff is pretty impossible.
... and maybe that's why he told stories instead. .. many of which are actually kinda twisty
I imagine he did that to better teach the lessons he was trying to teach. I imagine that idea was more important to him, and more of the reason he came down to earth as a man in the first place, than to explain the concept of omnipotence. Especially since that concept makes no sense to anyone as limited as we humans are.
-- A2SG, at least, that's my theory...neither jesus nor god has told me a thing one way or the other....
Last edited on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 03:29 am by Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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met
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Posted: Fri Oct 2nd, 2009 04:50 am |
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote:
I'm sure. Because it makes no sense.
... but makes sene to analytic philosophers 
Even if you're speaking in the vernacular, why would you say something like "with god, all things are possible" if you don't mean to say god can do impossible things.
Also, the bible clearly contradicts the idea. Does creating the entire world, universe, animals, etc. come under the heading "everything possible"? Does creating man in your own image? How about women from a man's rib?
Seems to me that stuff is pretty impossible.
according to analytic philosophers, there's no reason not to expect stuff to happen just cuz it never happens ... and believing things continue to happen the same old way makes no rational sense
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Posted: Fri Oct 2nd, 2009 06:43 am |
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met wrote: Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote:
I'm sure. Because it makes no sense.
... but makes sene to analytic philosophers
Well, they're wackos anyway, so.....
Even if you're speaking in the vernacular, why would you say something like "with god, all things are possible" if you don't mean to say god can do impossible things.
Also, the bible clearly contradicts the idea. Does creating the entire world, universe, animals, etc. come under the heading "everything possible"? Does creating man in your own image? How about women from a man's rib?
Seems to me that stuff is pretty impossible.
according to analytic philosophers, there's no reason not to expect stuff to happen just cuz it never happens ... and believing things continue to happen the same old way makes no rational sense
Except that we're talking about stuff that can't happen, given our understanding of the world around us. Things like people spontaneously springing up from clay, women from ribs, talking snakes who offer fruit that gives one who eats it knowledge of good and evil.
Even from an analytic philosophical point of view, our understanding of physics makes it clear that these kinds of things can't happen. And yet, depsite that, in the bible, god is said to have done them anyway.
So, clearly, according to the bible, god can do things that are impossible, just as it says.
-- A2SG, there, I've now used the bible to prove the bible correct! Who says I don't understand christian apologetics....
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