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met
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Posted: Wed Sep 16th, 2009 11:08 pm |
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yoki wrote: Ronson wrote:
For God to perform logical contradictions would require He alter the reality that we know.
well stated... I completely agree
because you would read into Ronson's statement like this? .... can God then change his own nature.. can God be not-God??
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Wed Sep 16th, 2009 11:46 pm |
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'he CAN make something totally and absolutely indestructable. And then he CAN destroy it. No problem.' -Arthur
I wanna play! 
No He can't. He cannot "make something" that is indestructible, to Him. Because the things that are "made" have a beginning and therefore, can have an end. Things that are *made* are not in and of themselves, eternal. They are created, and are subject to their creator.
The only way I can say this to where it makes sense to me is this: God cannot destroy that which is *of Himself....for it alone is eternal. Anything else, is vulnerable to destruction, for it is a created thing.
That's why God *imparts what is of Him....the stuff that cannot ever be destroyed, by Him or anyone/thing else.
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 04:16 am |
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met wrote: Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote: -- A2SG, since when can god only do the possible things?
The question, tho, is can God do things that are not only impossible here in EVERY possible universe ... eg can God create a rock that is simultaneously A and not-A?
If god is omnipotent then, by definition, yes, he can.
But then again, maybe those kinds of concepts don't even really mean anything, they're just pointless artifacts of language .. eg can God create a round square? ...
Again, yes.
Omnipotent means he can do anything, after all. And the bible clearly states that, with god, all things are possible.
I see no qualification.
I think the only problem here is that humans have assigned an ability to god, omnipotence, that is beyond human understanding. And that is only a problem if you try to understand it.
If he can't, does God's "inability" to create a round square make him less powerful? Maybe it just makes him seem less powerful to silly humans who want to believe, deep down, that just if they can manipulate the symbols they use to communicate their "inner worlds" among themselves in strange, empty and pointless ways, they're more powerful than God?
There is an easy way to determine which is more powerful, humans or god.
Who created whom?
Answer that, and you'll know.
-- A2SG, and, of course, the only way most people try to answer that is to start out believing one answer to be correct.....
Last edited on Thu Sep 17th, 2009 04:47 am by Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 04:34 am |
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Ronson wrote: Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote: Nope.
See, omnipotent means he can do anything. Period. No qualifications.
Exactly. But since he failed to make something indestructable and eternal (because he can still destroy it) then he is not omnipotent.
If it's impossible to destroy something, then it's indestructable. God having the ability to do the impossible doesn't change that, does it?
The logical contradiction is that the creation is either destructable or indestructable. To claim either one eliminates omnipotence, and to claim both is paradoxical.
So? Omnipotence itself is a paradox. So is god, when you come down to it.
Remember Matthew 19:26:
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
So, if god is omnipotent, he CAN make something totally and absolutely indestructable. And then he CAN destroy it. No problem.
-- A2SG, since when can god only do the possible things?
For God to perform logical contradictions would require He alter the reality that we know.
Only if he wants to. If god is omnipotent, then he can do whatever he wants to, without limitation.
Whether or not we understand how he does this is irrelevant.
If God alters our reality to make logical contradictions possible then the game is rigged. There are too many on/off, up/down, 1/0 states in our reality that are absolute and cannot be compromised. That is a condition of our reality.
Why do you assume god has to alter OUR reality to do something impossible? Doesn't the bible clearly state that with god, all things are possible? Even those things that are impossible for humans?
I guess it comes down to what you want to believe. If you want to believe in an omnipotent god, then you accept that he can do anything, without qualification. You just have to accept the fact that you can't understand how.
But, if you'd prefer to believe in a god who isn't perfect, who is limited and fallible, that's okay too. That god would certainly be easier to relate to, since's more like us.
-- A2SG, conveniently, the bible can support either one....
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 04:46 am |
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PearlsSand2 wrote: 'he CAN make something totally and absolutely indestructable. And then he CAN destroy it. No problem.' -Arthur
I wanna play!
No He can't.
Then he isn't omnipotent.
He cannot "make something" that is indestructible, to Him.
If he's omnipotent, then he can. He can also destroy it.
Omnipotence has no qualifications. Both statements would be true, and the fact that they contradict each other would be irrelevant.
Because the things that are "made" have a beginning and therefore, can have an end. Things that are *made* are not in and of themselves, eternal. They are created, and are subject to their creator.
So if that creator has the ability to make that thing eternal and indestructable (and an omnipotent god does have that ability), then it would be so.
The fact that he can destroy it doesn't change that.
The only way I can say this to where it makes sense to me is this: God cannot destroy that which is *of Himself....for it alone is eternal. Anything else, is vulnerable to destruction, for it is a created thing.
That's why God *imparts what is of Him....the stuff that cannot ever be destroyed, by Him or anyone/thing else.
If he's omnipotent, he can do anything. Period. No qualification. If the god you believe in can't do something, then that god isn't omnipotent.
By definition.
No big deal, really...not all gods are omnipotent.
-- A2SG, the only problem here, as I see it, is in trying to understand something that's impossible for a limited mind to understand.....
Last edited on Thu Sep 17th, 2009 04:51 am by Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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met
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Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 11:14 pm |
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote:
-- A2SG, conveniently, the bible can support either one....
which is cool, the Bible texts weren't written to be philosophy .... more like poetry
Last edited on Thu Sep 17th, 2009 11:14 pm by met
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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yoki
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Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 04:24 pm |
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met wrote: yoki wrote: Ronson wrote:
For God to perform logical contradictions would require He alter the reality that we know.
well stated... I completely agree
because you would read into Ronson's statement like this? .... can God then change his own nature.. can God be not-God??
God creates "realities" for his own pleasure. They are what they are with no need for alteration.
A created logical contradition for us would be making a swimming pool with the finishing touch of putting a million holes in it. Is god any different?
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met
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Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 06:17 pm |
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yokes, yeh, that's an interesting thought ... (and kinda Eastern, it seems to me )
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“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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yoki
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Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 08:46 pm |
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met wrote: yokes, yeh, that's an interesting thought ... (and kinda Eastern, it seems to me )
Brahman sleeps, and sometimes dreams.
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Evelyn
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Posted: Mon Sep 21st, 2009 04:44 am |
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There is a lot that God doesn't know. God became a man, but as far as recorded in the Bible, God never became a woman, so God doesn't know what menstrual cramps feel like, or what it feels like to know you are pregnant, or that first flutter known as quickening. God doesn't know what it feels like to carry a 7 pound baby in a space that started out the size of your fist. God doesn't know what labor pains feel like or how it feels when the "urge to push" overwhelms all consciousness. He doesn't know the joy of breastfeeding, nor the pain of it.
God is said to have experienced death and resurrection, and a painful and shameful death, but he never experienced a diagnosis of cancer or AIDS or Alzheimer's.
God never had 6 kids and a drunken cheating husband, or a pay check that wouldn't buy them food and shoes in the same month.
God never experienced sex, either as a man or as a woman, as far as we are told. He never struggled with sexual desires that were deemed completely unacceptable and shameful. He never felt the shame of sin.
Unless God experiences all these things in and through us, there's a whole lot that God can't possibly really understand about the human condition, despite having become man.
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yoki
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Posted: Mon Sep 21st, 2009 02:37 pm |
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Evelyn wrote: There is a lot that God doesn't know. God became a man, but as far as recorded in the Bible, God never became a woman, so God doesn't know what menstrual cramps feel like, or what it feels like to know you are pregnant, or that first flutter known as quickening. God doesn't know what it feels like to carry a 7 pound baby in a space that started out the size of your fist. God doesn't know what labor pains feel like or how it feels when the "urge to push" overwhelms all consciousness. He doesn't know the joy of breastfeeding, nor the pain of it.
God is said to have experienced death and resurrection, and a painful and shameful death, but he never experienced a diagnosis of cancer or AIDS or Alzheimer's.
God never had 6 kids and a drunken cheating husband, or a pay check that wouldn't buy them food and shoes in the same month.
God never experienced sex, either as a man or as a woman, as far as we are told. He never struggled with sexual desires that were deemed completely unacceptable and shameful. He never felt the shame of sin.
Unless God experiences all these things in and through us, there's a whole lot that God can't possibly really understand about the human condition, despite having become man.
At least Zeus experienced one or two of those things you listed, Evelyn. Methinks Jehovah should get out more, for even the pagan gods know a bit more than him.
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_Ammon_
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Posted: Mon Sep 21st, 2009 05:37 pm |
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To claim there are things God will never know is to claim you know everything about God. I'm with Arthur on this one, both omnipotence and omniscience are unqualified, if the popular conception of God exists then he/she/it can do anything and knows everything.
Edited to add: Whether that makes sense to us or not.
Last edited on Mon Sep 21st, 2009 05:38 pm by _Ammon_
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 08:05 pm |
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_Ammon_ wrote: To claim there are things God will never know is to claim you know everything about God. I'm with Arthur on this one, both omnipotence and omniscience are unqualified, if the popular conception of God exists then he/she/it can do anything and knows everything.
Edited to add: Whether that makes sense to us or not.
It seems to me that to claim that there are no things God will never know is also to claim you know everything about God.
I've definitely heard a lot of different Christian opinions on whether God can do things that utterly defy logic. Like: "Can God kill himself, permanently, and at the same time remain alive?"
I hear a lot of fairly passionate "yes" and "no" answers, but a shockingly small number of people saying "Well, hey, to be honest we really don't know very much about God's nature."
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_Ammon_
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Posted: Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 10:32 pm |
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| But the common definition of God includes omnipotence and omniscience, so I'd say if you're not talking those you're not talking God as most people understand the word. Last edited on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 10:32 pm by _Ammon_
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met
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Posted: Thu Sep 24th, 2009 11:19 pm |
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_Ammon_ wrote: But the common definition of God includes omnipotence and omniscience, so I'd say if you're not talking those you're not talking God as most people understand the word.
but does the common definitions of omnipotence and omniscience include everything, or just more like "everything possible?"
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Posted: Fri Sep 25th, 2009 04:49 am |
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met wrote: _Ammon_ wrote: But the common definition of God includes omnipotence and omniscience, so I'd say if you're not talking those you're not talking God as most people understand the word.
but does the common definitions of omnipotence and omniscience include everything, or just more like "everything possible?"
Dictionary.com defines omnipotence as: almighty or infinite in power, as God.
No qualifications there.
Besides...
Matthew 19:26: Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
-- A2SG, then again, the bible features both an omnipotent and a fallible, limited god, so either way you go, you're covered there....
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met
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Posted: Fri Sep 25th, 2009 03:11 pm |
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote: met wrote: _Ammon_ wrote: But the common definition of God includes omnipotence and omniscience, so I'd say if you're not talking those you're not talking God as most people understand the word.
but does the common definitions of omnipotence and omniscience include everything, or just more like "everything possible?"
Dictionary.com defines omnipotence as: almighty or infinite in power, as God.
No qualifications there.
Besides...
Matthew 19:26: Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
-
But Christ is speaking in the vernacular, not like a analytic philosopher ... so you're beggin' my point!
... and, btw, infinities don't include EVERYTHING, as some Pythagorean discovered to his chagrin ... amof, in set theory, NO infinity includes everything, cuz there's always another, bigger infinity beyond that one
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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yoki
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Posted: Fri Sep 25th, 2009 08:52 pm |
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met wrote: Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote: met wrote: _Ammon_ wrote: But the common definition of God includes omnipotence and omniscience, so I'd say if you're not talking those you're not talking God as most people understand the word.
but does the common definitions of omnipotence and omniscience include everything, or just more like "everything possible?"
Dictionary.com defines omnipotence as: almighty or infinite in power, as God.
No qualifications there.
Besides...
Matthew 19:26: Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
-
But Christ is speaking in the vernacular, not like a analytic philosopher ... so you're beggin' my point!
... and, btw, infinities don't include EVERYTHING, as some Pythagorean discovered to his chagrin ... amof, in set theory, NO infinity includes everything, cuz there's always another, bigger infinity beyond that one
"Infinities" have a habit of containing themselves, as does the present Universe in which we find ourselves.Last edited on Fri Sep 25th, 2009 08:52 pm by yoki
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Fri Sep 25th, 2009 09:41 pm |
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yoki wrote: met wrote: Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote: met wrote: _Ammon_ wrote: But the common definition of God includes omnipotence and omniscience, so I'd say if you're not talking those you're not talking God as most people understand the word.
but does the common definitions of omnipotence and omniscience include everything, or just more like "everything possible?"
Dictionary.com defines omnipotence as: almighty or infinite in power, as God.
No qualifications there.
Besides...
Matthew 19:26: Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
-
But Christ is speaking in the vernacular, not like a analytic philosopher ... so you're beggin' my point!
... and, btw, infinities don't include EVERYTHING, as some Pythagorean discovered to his chagrin ... amof, in set theory, NO infinity includes everything, cuz there's always another, bigger infinity beyond that one
"Infinities" have a habit of containing themselves, as does the present Universe in which we find ourselves.
Well, that's one of the great paradoxical questions:
Which are there more of, whole numbers or even numbers?
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met
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Posted: Fri Sep 25th, 2009 11:45 pm |
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here's paradoxical .... the set of real numbers is (infinitely) larger than the set of rationals, but there's always a rational between any two reals and vice versa
when i was in school,i explained this one time to an Engineering student and really rocked his world  ... he emailed his objections to that to mathematicians all over NA
____________________
“Hum tum ek kamre meins band ho, aur chaabi kho jaaye”
-from Bobby
o Dir. Raj Kapoor. 1973. R.K. Films Ltd.
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