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Torquemada
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 02:21 pm |
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So, these last few months, I've been getting back into the whole Christian whoohoo Biblegod rocks thing (seriously) and for a while it was going well and I seriously felt close to God again, and then the shit hits the fan, my face gets rubbed in the dirt in the worst possible way, and I'm sitting here at midnight having survived a near-breakdown on the way home from work and having talked myself out of taking a knife to my throat - all before coming home to my family and pretending like everything was fine and I had a dandy night out. (Don't worry, I'm fine now, and I would never seriously consider harming myself; I'm just being emo.)
I'm really sick of this. I joke about my religious life on here, but this has been the pattern for years now. I get 'serious' about God, try to do everything 'right,' fail, get my teeth kicked in, and go crawling back to satanism or atheism. I swear I'll never give God the time of day again. Then I get inspired, or something happens in my life, and I decide to 'give the God thing another shot.' I have very intense spiritual experiences where I feel so close to Jesus that I can almost feel his heart beating in my chest; I don't talk about those on here very often, but they're the other side of my 'evil' coin. Sometimes I feel totally enraptured in God's love. And then the shit comes down, and the joke's on me. I just expect it now. Wash, rinse, repeat. I really need to just cut it off and stop playing God's wheel of fortune game. It's getting dangerous for my health.
Here's the thing. When I'm on my 'dark side' and looking out for number one - with no concern for biblegod or vague concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' - I'm extremely efficient and able to get what I want out of life. Having told Biblegod to 'fuck off' for the umpteenth time, I actually feel really good today - full of energy, motivated, and knowing exactly what I want and how I'm going to get it. When I start drifting off into spirituality, compassion, and vague feelings of love, I become weak and docile, and inevitably set myself up for the proverbial episode of having my teeth kicked in by some idiotic tantrum. Just basing my perspective on relative efficiency and quality of life, I have to say that there's really no comparison - with a self-centered, 'dog eat dog' attitude, I always do well and come close to being genuinely satisfied.
But, I also believe in God. Scary, yes. I'm not an atheist; I just believe that God is either an evil bastard or that He has a particular vendetta against me (which would, admittedly, be more than justified; if that's the case, though, I've confessed my sins and evil lifestyle more often than I can even remember - what else do you want me to do about it?). Some of the 'bad' things in my life seem too well scripted to just be coincidences; what happened last night was really weird. So what exactly does that make me - a God-hating theistic satanist? A reverse Christian? I'm just very confused; sometimes I think it is best that I just remove 'spirituality' from my life completely and move on.
Last edited on Tue Sep 1st, 2009 02:35 pm by Torquemada
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Torquemada
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 02:46 pm |
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Ok, a follow-up question that might help guide this 'conversation' (or rant): when things like this happen, is it God judging you for something you've done, or is it the devil trying to interfere because he knows that you're getting closer in your relationship with God? If it's the former, what exactly am I supposed to do? There are habits and things in my life that I try to break, but I keep going back to them. Kicking my teeth in every few months seems like a really twisted way to try to teach me a 'lesson' - the only lesson I learned from last night was that I need to be hard-hearted bastard and stop with the God stuff. If God really wanted to deal with the sin in my life, there are other ways; I know my soul and what I need - I need help, not a monthly beating.
On the other hand, if it's the devil, then why doesn't God 'speak up' and somehow indicate to me that it is the devil and not him? I mean, I go to God about it, and he is totally silent. The only impression I get from God is that I'm on my own and he wants nothing to do with me (which IS justifiable; I'm not going to deny that... I just get tired of the games. I wish God would just be a man and tell me where we're at so that I can move on with my life.). This is why I have to conclude that it's God, not the devil. I mean, think of it this way - if there was a criminal in your neighborhood who regularly slipped razor blades into your child's school lunch, and your child had started to suspect that it was YOU doing this before you sent them off to school, wouldn't you speak up and say "no, that's not me. That's the evil man across the street. Don't let him get to you?" Why would you leave your child to a guessing game of 'who's trying to murder me?' lol.
Last edited on Tue Sep 1st, 2009 02:55 pm by Torquemada
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Ronson
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 03:49 pm |
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The warm fuzzies you appear to be expecting is something I've never experienced myself. I am generally contented and I attribute much of this to my spiritual disposition, but that's about all.
As far as attaining the things you want in life or experiencing difficulties, depending on your current spiritual flavor, this I have experienced. I have at times strove and prayed hard for certain things - attainable things - and fell frustratingly short. I have also barely tried for some things that seemed out of reach and somehow attained them, despite never having prayed for them. Is God behind any of this or is it luck? I don't know. IMO, God is mostly 'hands-off' in our lives and allows us to weave our own ways. If so, when you are in your 'reliance-on-God' mode you may be expecting too much. On the other hand, you may also be getting hit with trials that will make you stronger spiritually and God is allowing them. There has been only one time in my life when I had an immediate visible answer to a prayer in the way I expected, and it was a purely spiritual matter. And this was also a period of trial for me.
I have difficulty relating to people who are seeking a spiritual path because the road I've travelled is somewhat different than yours. I can only suggest patience. You have a lot of years ahead of you and anything can happen during that time. 
Last edited on Tue Sep 1st, 2009 06:24 pm by Ronson
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yoki
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 05:17 pm |
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In my opinion, and I too am a theist, is that to look upon god as a "person" who does and is even capable of communicating with us, is an error. Thus, biblegod to me is about as real as are Woden, Zeus and El. To believe that god is a person is to immediately relegate him to be a being, just like we are, who is trapped in time and in space. Whereas god, the true god, creator of all things... and I mean ALL, has little or no concern for anyone here who is living out these insignficant, limited and very temporal lives. God is eternal, and so is his creation. If we have a purpose and meaning, it is to get on with life. Death will inevitably come in its own "time" - god made it that way. Why should we complain.
But if we do complain, god doesn't give a shit. If he didn't give a shit for the 6 million Jews of the Holocaust, why would he give one about us?
Last edited on Tue Sep 1st, 2009 05:19 pm by yoki
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Carol2
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 06:08 pm |
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Although I have experienced the "warm fuzzies" and do so from time to time, I am a pretty laid back Christian. If you tend to seesaw up and down with your emotions it must be the way you're wired. You're a passionate person. The fact that you keep coming back to God (or cursing Him) is not necessarily a bad thing. It just shows that you can't ever be accused of being "lukewarm". 
Perhaps you could even consider yourself as valuable in the spiritual realm as both God and Satan seem to be fighting for control of you. Gotta ask yourself, if it's going to be one or the other, why would you choose to represent Satan over God?
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Ronson
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 06:27 pm |
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yoki wrote: ...Whereas god, the true god, creator of all things... and I mean ALL, has little or no concern for anyone here who is living out these insignficant, limited and very temporal lives...
Isn't the above a better description for deism?
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yoki
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 06:47 pm |
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Ronson wrote: yoki wrote: ...Whereas god, the true god, creator of all things... and I mean ALL, has little or no concern for anyone here who is living out these insignficant, limited and very temporal lives...
Isn't the above a better description for deism?
Perhaps that is a better description, Ronson, but only if theism implies that god has to be a person.
In my book theism does not necessarily mean that within such a belief system that god must be a person.
Hindus are theists, and yet the ultimate "god" in their belief system is Brahman, which is the source of all being, and is in essence, being itself. In actual fact, Brahman is not really god at all, but is simply true reality.
Within such a belief system, that is within Hinduism, I find more support in my observations than within anything that I can find in western religious/philosphical thought.
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yoki
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 07:40 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: Although I have experienced the "warm fuzzies" and do so from time to time, I am a pretty laid back Christian. If you tend to seesaw up and down with your emotions it must be the way you're wired. You're a passionate person. The fact that you keep coming back to God (or cursing Him) is not necessarily a bad thing. It just shows that you can't ever be accused of being "lukewarm".
Perhaps you could even consider yourself as valuable in the spiritual realm as both God and Satan seem to be fighting for control of you. Gotta ask yourself, if it's going to be one or the other, why would you choose to represent Satan over God?
I don't think that Satan plans to maintain the consciousness of billions of souls so that they can experience torment forever. However, the traditional Christian god does plan this. So, who is more evil, Carol?
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Torquemada
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 07:49 pm |
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Please stop with the "warm fuzzies." If "love" somehow equates to "warm fuzzies" in your mind, then you guys are more shallow than I thought. I don't mean that as an insult; I'm just a little surprised that everything I mentioned somehow boils to "Yoda wants warm fuzzies from God." If I wanted "warm fuzzies," I'd buy a teddy bear. :-
I'm not asking for 'things' either. When and if I pray, I don't even pray for myself very often, and when I do, I generally just ask that God/Jesus would help me put my life back together, would forgive me for being an evil shit, and would help me find love and fulfillment in life (but not "warm fuzzies," whatever the hell that is). In this case, there were some other issues involved where I felt that God was leading me along a certain path, only to get hit with the little surprise that was waiting for me last night. I'd prefer not go into detail, because I don't think anyone here would understand the situation, anyway; put in writing it just sounds like melodrama, but you'd have to understand the significance I attached to the whole thing to really understand why it had this impact on me. Suddenly I find out that the joke's on me, and I've been set up to be humiliated and smacked down again. The only reason I can think of for this is that I didn't respond in faith... I mean, I did, I prayed, fasted, did everything I could, but I was still sort of thumbing my nose at God and doing sinful things too. But I realize that they're sinful things and I ask for forgiveness and help; I'm all too aware that I can't figure this out on my own, and I thought that was what 'grace' was about. This isn't the first time this has happened, and I'm really tired of God 'leading me on,' only to spring a surprise on me at the end.
As far as Ronson's advice ("maybe you're expecting too much"... from GOD? Really?) and Yoki's advice ("God doesn't give a shit, anyway") goes, I can roll with that, but it leaves me wondering 'why bother at all with the God thing?' If God doesn't give a shit - or if I can't expect much more from him beyond a pat on the back as I work my ass to figure life out myself - then why bother with God at all?
Last edited on Tue Sep 1st, 2009 07:58 pm by Torquemada
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Torquemada
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 07:56 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: Although I have experienced the "warm fuzzies" and do so from time to time, I am a pretty laid back Christian. If you tend to seesaw up and down with your emotions it must be the way you're wired. You're a passionate person. The fact that you keep coming back to God (or cursing Him) is not necessarily a bad thing. It just shows that you can't ever be accused of being "lukewarm". YO: I guess I'm somewhat passionate when I get attached to something. I'm not a big fan of emotionalism or melodrama, but I guess I am wired this way now because of all the shit I've been through in the last few years. I scored 80% neurotic on a personality quiz. The average is like... 10%.  Perhaps you could even consider yourself as valuable in the spiritual realm as both God and Satan seem to be fighting for control of you. Gotta ask yourself, if it's going to be one or the other, why would you choose to represent Satan over God? YO: Eh. This is going to sound weird, but I have thought about that before. Someone once told me that Satan always goes after the 'brightest lights' in God's kingdom first. I've never really been particularly spiritual, but people do seem to attach a lot to me at times. I once had a coworker (to this day I believe he may have had a gift of prophecy) who identified me as a 'Christian' even though I had never said a word about my faith background and I was dabbling in satanism at the time. When I asked how he knew that, he said "you're so radiant - I can just see God's light in you." So I don't know, there may be something to that, but if that's the case, then God needs to speak up and make himself clear as to what he wants from me. Leaving a person shuddering and wishing they were dead is NOT making them stronger or a "better Christian." Geeze. I don't 'represent Satan,' but there are times when I like the philosophy of Satanism, as laid out in the Satanic Bible. It's just Ayn Rand's objectivism repackaged with some flashy rituals and occult symbolism. I don't practice any of it; I just glance at it from time to time and kind of appreciate how easy to follow and straightforward it is - "watch out for yourself and crush anyone who gets in the way of your goals and desires." At least it's straightforward. With God, things just get confusing, and my attempts to 'find God' usually just end in a crash and burn like the one I had last night. :-\
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Carol2
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 08:04 pm |
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| Two questions: 1. What, exactly, happened last night? and 2. Why would you read the Satanic Bible? You're just looking for trouble there. Satanism works by powerful deception.
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Ronson
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 08:08 pm |
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Torquemada wrote: Please stop with the "warm fuzzies." If "love" somehow equates to "warm fuzzies" in your mind, then you guys are more shallow than I thought. I don't mean that as an insult; I'm just a little surprised that everything I mentioned somehow boils to "Yoda wants warm fuzzies from God." If I wanted "warm fuzzies," I'd buy a teddy bear. :-
I'm sorry. I didn't mean for my 'warm fuzzies' statement to be taken an insult. It's just that a lot of Christians claim to have this feeling (in so many words), so I thought perhaps you were also expecting it, and my point is that I do not have such feelings.
I'm not asking for 'things' either. When and if I pray, I don't even pray for myself very often, and when I do, I generally just ask that God/Jesus would help me put my life back together, would forgive me for being an evil shit, and would help me find love and fulfillment in life (but not "warm fuzzies," whatever the hell that is). In this case, there were some other issues involved where I felt that God was leading me along a certain path, only to get hit with the little surprise that was waiting for me last night. I'd prefer not go into detail, because I don't think anyone here would understand the situation, anyway; put in writing it just sounds like melodrama, but you'd have to understand the significance I attached to the whole thing to really understand why it had this impact on me. Suddenly I find out that the joke's on me, and I've been set up to be humiliated and smacked down again. The only reason I can think of for this is that I didn't respond in faith... I mean, I did, I prayed, fasted, did everything I could, but I was still sort of thumbing my nose at God and doing sinful things too. But I realize that they're sinful things and I ask for forgiveness and help; I'm all too aware that I can't figure this out on my own, and I thought that was what 'grace' was about. This isn't the first time this has happened, and I'm really tired of God 'leading me on,' only to spring a surprise on me at the end.
As far as Ronson's advice ("maybe you're expecting too much"... from GOD? Really?) and Yoki's advice ("God doesn't give a shit, anyway") goes, I can roll with that, but it leaves me wondering 'why bother at all with the God thing?' If God doesn't give a shit - or if I can't expect much more from him beyond a pat on the back as I work my ass to figure life out myself - then why bother with God at all?
One of my favorite lines from Paul is from Corinthians: "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." I interpret this in two ways; that we tend to emphasize areas of life that God does not deem important in the long term, and that we will not know God's priorities until we are ultimately in His presence.
Mine certainly isn't a Catholic or fundamentalist notion of God. I simply do not know what God directs in my life and what He does not. I suspect it is very little - based on my observations and on the thought that if God is orchestrating too much in my life then I am not growing and learning to deal with adversity. The only time I saw an immediate and tangible effect from prayer was when I was dealing with a negative spiritual influence. Because of this I assume God intervenes in spiritual matters but possibly not so much in physical matters.
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Torquemada
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 08:09 pm |
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Hmm. Looking at my comments above, one thing that stands out is my failure to pray effectively for myself. To use Christianese, this is an issue God has been "working on my heart about" these last few weeks. A few nights ago, I was praying for a friend, and when I was finished I felt God saying "don't you want anything for yourself?" I could almost picture him saying it with a smile - the way I friend would say "I already know what you want, why don't you just come out and say it?" A little later, I also felt God say "while I'm pouring out blessings to all of the people you are praying for, can I at least give you the leftovers?"
What happened last night, though, kind of confirmed all of this. There's a story behind the whole thing, which is that when I was praying a few months ago, I said something that really amounted to a "pious lie." I was trying not to be "selfish" (which really meant hiding my desires from God), and so I said something stupid that sounded good but didn't really communicate what I wanted. It basically boiled down to "do such and such for so and so, I'll be satisfied, even if I never have the opportunity to talk to so and so again." Well, it looks like God answered that prayer and took me up on it. That's the last time I lie when I'm praying. 
Last edited on Tue Sep 1st, 2009 08:09 pm by Torquemada
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Torquemada
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 08:12 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: Two questions: 1. What, exactly, happened last night? YO: I'd have to explain it over PM. I don't want to post it here. It really wasn't anything traumatic; nobody died or anything. It was just that a lot of expectations were shot in only a few minutes, and in a way that managed to really rub it in. If you really want the details, I will send them to you in PM. I might have to do it later; I need to get back to work soon. 2. Why would you read the Satanic Bible? You're just looking for trouble there. Satanism works by powerful deception. YO: It's not what you think it is; if you've read Ayn Rand, it's pretty much the same. It's basically a philosophical and satirical work focused on self-reliance and enlightened self-interest. I've dabbled on and off with 'dark side' stuff since high school. When you're convinced that God and you have parted ways for good, there comes a point where you decide you might as well enjoy the ride to hell and get as much satisfaction out of it as you can.
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Torquemada
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 08:17 pm |
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Ronson wrote: I'm sorry. I didn't mean for my 'warm fuzzies' statement to be taken an insult. It's just that a lot of Christians claim to have this feeling (in so many words), so I thought perhaps you were also expecting it, and my point is that I do not have such feelings. YO: Don't worry, I didn't take it as an insult. I don't base my faith (or lack thereof) on feelings and emotions, but I do recognize that I need help in certain areas of my life, and many of those are indeed spiritual in nature. When you're surrounded by people all day and they all expect you to have your shit together, you talk to God about your problems. Sometimes it would be nice if he would reply or do something to help. I guess you can call that warm fuzzies. lol. One of my favorite lines from Paul is from Corinthians: "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." I interpret this in two ways; that we tend to emphasize areas of life that God does not deem important in the long term, and that we will not know God's priorities until we are ultimately in His presence.
Mine certainly isn't a Catholic or fundamentalist notion of God. I simply do not know what God directs in my life and what He does not. I suspect it is very little - based on my observations and on the thought that if God is orchestrating too much in my life then I am not growing and learning to deal with adversity. The only time I saw an immediate and tangible effect from prayer was when I was dealing with a negative spiritual influence. Because of this I assume God intervenes in spiritual matters but possibly not so much in physical matters. YO: Yeah, I can see where that would make sense to an extent, but can't it also be a "cop out" for God not really doing anything? I mean, it's easy to say that God only works in spiritual matters - because those are matters none of us can see or verify. If I remember correctly, the Greek word "sozo," meaning to "save," does include a physical as well as spiritual component. It means salvation for the entire person, so to speak, not just spiritual salvation in the afterlife.
Last edited on Tue Sep 1st, 2009 08:18 pm by Torquemada
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Carol2
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 08:22 pm |
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Torquemada wrote: Carol2 wrote: Two questions: 1. What, exactly, happened last night? YO: I'd have to explain it over PM. I don't want to post it here. It really wasn't anything traumatic; nobody died or anything. It was just that a lot of expectations were shot in only a few minutes, and in a way that managed to really rub it in. If you really want the details, I will send them to you in PM. I might have to do it later; I need to get back to work soon. OK, I'll watch for the PM later. Going to work soon myself. 2. Why would you read the Satanic Bible? You're just looking for trouble there. Satanism works by powerful deception. YO: It's not what you think it is; if you've read Ayn Rand, it's pretty much the same. It's basically a philosophical and satirical work focused on self-reliance and enlightened self-interest. I've dabbled on and off with 'dark side' stuff since high school. When you're convinced that God and you have parted ways for good, there comes a point where you decide you might as well enjoy the ride to hell and get as much satisfaction out of it as you can. I don't understand that philosophy at all.
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Torquemada
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 08:33 pm |
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| Eh. I tried to write it up, but it didn't even make sense. Maybe I'm just being completely stupid about this. I'll send you a PM when I get home.
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Carol2
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Posted: Tue Sep 1st, 2009 09:22 pm |
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'K
Sometimes when you write stuff out you get a better perspective of it.
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Merlin
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 03:57 am |
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Forget what christians think you should do, Yoda. Forget what everybody thinks you should do. What do YOU want to do?
Do you genuinely believe? Genuinely not believe? Don't know?
Figure out how you want to live your life -whether that is the rollercoaster ride of christianity or the spiritual aloneness of atheism or mysticism or pagan or whatever it is.... and then, when you know what you want, and know what you are, be true to yourself no matter who suggests otherwise.
As for "god has a vendetta against me," when you stop basing your expectations on that, you'll find it has no power over you at all.
You are on the path that all ex-christians have walked. I think you're already aware of that.
Last edited on Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 05:16 am by Merlin
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 04:30 am |
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Torquemada wrote: I'm really sick of this. I joke about my religious life on here, but this has been the pattern for years now. I get 'serious' about God, try to do everything 'right,' fail, get my teeth kicked in, and go crawling back to satanism or atheism. I swear I'll never give God the time of day again. Then I get inspired, or something happens in my life, and I decide to 'give the God thing another shot.' I have very intense spiritual experiences where I feel so close to Jesus that I can almost feel his heart beating in my chest; I don't talk about those on here very often, but they're the other side of my 'evil' coin. Sometimes I feel totally enraptured in God's love. And then the shit comes down, and the joke's on me. I just expect it now. Wash, rinse, repeat. I really need to just cut it off and stop playing God's wheel of fortune game. It's getting dangerous for my health.
Have you considered the possibility that you're bipolar?
I'm not being glib here. A friend of mine years ago used to have similar experiences until she saw a psychiatrist and was diagnosed as bipolar. A little medication, and she's been fine ever since.
-- A2SG, not to dismiss the possibility that god (or someone) is messin' with ya, I simply know of no way to check that.....
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