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Merlin
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 05:25 am |
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I considered for a bit that Yoda might be bipolar, but that isn't what this is about: it's realizing that no matter how carefully you toe the line and how hard you try and how "surrendered" you are, christianity just doesn't work like it's supposed to. The rollercoaster is in religous experience, not in the person.
You live like the devil and everything's fine and then try to live for god and get your ass kicked in and nothing makes sense. You're taught that god says "if you do these things" then he will bless you, but it doesn't work that way. Seriously, you try and try and try and finally come to the conclusion that god doesn't give two shits about what you do or don't do and the entire universe comes down to SHIT HAPPENS.
For those who have a christianity that makes no demands on them at all, this won't make sense. For those who take christianity seriously, it will make a lot of sense.
I've considered and rejected every argument of sinfulness and demons and perseverance and all I can tell you is
SHIT HAPPENS. Stop trying to get it to make sense. It never will.
When you grow up emotionally, you realize that you can be moral or not because of what you have inside you, not because of the big stick your father threatens you with. You can make your own decisions. You can take responsibility for your own actions.
Eventually you'll get tired of the rollercoaster and get off.
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Carol2
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 07:48 am |
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| Shit certainly does happen, but what does that have to do with having faith that God is in control and things work for the ultimate good of those who love God?
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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yoki
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 02:27 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: Shit certainly does happen, but what does that have to do with having faith that God is in control and things work for the ultimate good of those who love God?
Carol, maybe it's because shit happens to everyone regardless of their belief system, and regardless of their love for god. That is the reality. Besides, how is love for god expressed? God rarely talks to people, although he does seem to talk more to a few special folks locked away in mental institutions.
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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Torquemada
Yoda
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 02:37 pm |
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Merlin wrote: Forget what christians think you should do, Yoda. Forget what everybody thinks you should do. What do YOU want to do? YO: I'm not really sure. I can tell you what I want right now, but it would take magic or God to get it. And that's why the God thing is so addictive, Merlin - you want something that defies logic, so you go back to God to get it. I'm not completely delusional; I know when something is out of my hands and it's time to move on. Do you genuinely believe? Genuinely not believe? Don't know? YO: I would say that I "don't know." There are times when I *want* to believe because believing in a compassionate higher power allows me to hope for things that I know are beyond my control and helps me to find meaning and order in an otherwise chaotic and random life. I suspect this is why most people believe in God; intellectually, I'm a nihilist, emotionally I'm a theist and would-be Christian. On the other hand, there are times when I absolutely do not want to believe in the biblical God, such as when I contemplate the possibility of someone I care about going to hell. So it's a mixed deck. In general, I would say that I have never come to a point where I 'genuinely do not believe,' which is why I say that I am probably more of a theistic satanist or reverse Christian. I believe in God and I believe the Bible to be true; that doesn't mean that God or the Bible are good, though. Figure out how you want to live your life -whether that is the rollercoaster ride of christianity or the spiritual aloneness of atheism or mysticism or pagan or whatever it is.... and then, when you know what you want, and know what you are, be true to yourself no matter who suggests otherwise. YO: Yes, this is a good advice, but I'm still sorting it all out. As for "god has a vendetta against me," when you stop basing your expectations on that, you'll find it has no power over you at all. YO: That sounds almost like a 'law of attraction' concept. I realize this idea that God "has a vendetta against me" is not a healthy perspective. At the same time, I see things happening in my life that seem to be beyond coincidence. I haven't really talked about this on the forum, but I made some decisions as a teenager that pretty much ruined a family member's life. She lost everything because of me, and I did it willfully and intentionally shut the Holy Spirit out of my life when it tried to warn me to go a different route. The other night, I got a taste of what she probably felt as a result of my actions, and it's not the first time this has happened.  You are on the path that all ex-christians have walked. I think you're already aware of that. YO: Well, yeah - I've already been down that path several times. The problem is I keep recrossing it. Even now I'm not going to say that I don't believe in God or Jesus. See, the problem is that this 'God' thing is an addictive drug. It saves you from having to face reality. I mean, as soon as I get off here, I'm going to go pray about the situation, and I'll probably take Friday off and spend time in prayer and fasting again. There's a part of me that knows I need to put a stop to this, though. It's like a dog that gets kicked and keeps coming back for more.
Last edited on Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 02:43 pm by Torquemada
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Torquemada
Yoda
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 02:40 pm |
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| It's possible that I could be bipolar, among other things. I haven't had it checked out. That still doesn't really address the God question though.
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yoki
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 04:09 pm |
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Torquemada wrote: It's possible that I could be bipolar, among other things. I haven't had it checked out. That still doesn't really address the God question though.
If biblegod was found to be bipolar though, that would surely address many questions we have about him, no?
Biblegod is also known as the Great Physician, so perhaps he could examine himself to find out. Surely this does make sense when one considers that he satisfied his own wrath but offering himself to himself. So medically examining himself should be a cake walk for him.
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Ronson
Ronson
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 05:10 pm |
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Torquemada wrote: Yeah, I can see where that would make sense to an extent, but can't it also be a "cop out" for God not really doing anything?
But He did do something. It's just that it only happened once for me and it was spiritual in nature. So I have drawn a conclusion based on that.
I mean, it's easy to say that God only works in spiritual matters - because those are matters none of us can see or verify.
I verified it. I am completely satisfied there was no coincidence involved. If you mean verification from a third party, I'm not sure why that is of importance.
If I remember correctly, the Greek word "sozo," meaning to "save," does include a physical as well as spiritual component. It means salvation for the entire person, so to speak, not just spiritual salvation in the afterlife.
Again, I can only judge things from experience. The fact that we all die indicates that we aren't saved physically. If "sozo" means spiritual and physical, then perhaps it was the closest word found that could be used. Or perhaps it was used in error. Anything is possible.
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Carol2
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 06:04 pm |
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yoki wrote: Carol2 wrote: Shit certainly does happen, but what does that have to do with having faith that God is in control and things work for the ultimate good of those who love God?
Carol, maybe it's because shit happens to everyone regardless of their belief system, and regardless of their love for god. That is the reality. Besides, how is love for god expressed? God rarely talks to people, although he does seem to talk more to a few special folks locked away in mental institutions. Yes, shit happens to everyone. We call them "trials and tribulations". And God "talks" to people who have the ears to hear him. You're waiting for an audible voice from the sky, or what?
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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yoki
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 06:07 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: yoki wrote: Carol2 wrote: Shit certainly does happen, but what does that have to do with having faith that God is in control and things work for the ultimate good of those who love God?
Carol, maybe it's because shit happens to everyone regardless of their belief system, and regardless of their love for god. That is the reality. Besides, how is love for god expressed? God rarely talks to people, although he does seem to talk more to a few special folks locked away in mental institutions. Yes, shit happens to everyone. We call them "trials and tribulations". And God "talks" to people who have the ears to hear him. You're waiting for an audible voice from the sky, or what?
Old testament patriarchs and prophets allegedly heard god's voice audibly, as did some New Testament apostles. Now god only talks to the mentally ill?
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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Carol2
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 06:16 pm |
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A lot has happened since then, Yoki. Jesus came and died on the cross. Now we are left with the Holy Spirit for guidence.
I suppose you may still be able to find people out there who claim to have heard God speaking audibly to them, but who would believe them? No one is "writing scripture" these days. It's a totally different world than it was in OT times, Yoki.
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Merlin
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 07:35 pm |
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Yoda said: "I can tell you what I want right now, but it would take magic or God to get it.
"
That's when you need to decide if your goals are realistic or not. Why? Because the help of the divine is never guaranteed.... you can spend a lifetime waiting for it.
Is that what you want, Yoda? For reality to finally kick in after you've wasted your entire life waiting for some diety to move on your behalf? From the time I was 3, I wanted nothing else but to be an evangelist. I spent my high school and college preparing for that, seeking non-stop for god to reveal his will, to show me, to aid me, to move on my behalf, blaming every oppositin on the devil... and I feel I completely wasted my time waiting.
I could have used those years to do something else, to be something else, to have accomplished something for humanity.... but instead I waited. And waited. And waited. And finally said fuck it all, and went to school at 55 years old.
What could I have done with my life if I hadn't tried to do what I thought pleased a god who never seemed to keep his side of the bargains?
Yoda, there is NO help from the supernatural to do what you want to do. And there is no way to do it without that help. You seek the unattainable.
Yes, it is a form of the Law of attraction: you are attracting to yourself the things you believe in. You are creating your own reality of dueling supernatural forces who war over you. And as long as that is your expectation, that is what you will experience.
Last edited on Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 08:06 pm by Merlin
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Carol2
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 07:45 pm |
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| Work hard at whatever it is you do, live a righteous life, and don't forget God is there. That's all God wants you to do.
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Torquemada
Yoda
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 07:50 pm |
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yoki wrote: If biblegod was found to be bipolar though, that would surely address many questions we have about him, no?
Biblegod is also known as the Great Physician, so perhaps he could examine himself to find out. Surely this does make sense when one considers that he satisfied his own wrath but offering himself to himself. So medically examining himself should be a cake walk for him.
LOL. Thanks, Yoki - I needed a laugh, and that did the trick. 
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yoki
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 08:03 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: A lot has happened since then, Yoki. Jesus came and died on the cross. Now we are left with the Holy Spirit for guidence.
I suppose you may still be able to find people out there who claim to have heard God speaking audibly to them, but who would believe them? Precisely Carol, and yet people living today think that a few select people living thousands of years ago did have god audibly speaking to them. Why is it that people think that if god speaks audibly to anyone today, this is less credible? No one is "writing scripture" these days. It's a totally different world than it was in OT times, Yoki.
What makes it so different Carol? How do you know that no one is writing scripture today? What if 200 years from now, millions of people believe that Letters from God is scripture? Will that make it scripture? Who has the authority or right to declare something scripture and something not? The books in the Bible you believe are scripture were declared scripture in the past by those who rejected Christ, or those who were Christians who held grave errors in theology, e.g., holding to the Marian dogmas.
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When shit happens, God doesn't give one.
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Carol2
Dialogue Facilitator
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 08:35 pm |
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| How are things different today? Well for one thing, the media! It's a much smaller world and we get up-to-the-second news updates on everything, anywhere around the world. News of God speaking audibly to someone is bound to get lost in the hustle pretty quickly, if it even makes the news at all.
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The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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yoki
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Posted: Wed Sep 2nd, 2009 08:49 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: How are things different today? Well for one thing, the media! It's a much smaller world and we get up-to-the-second news updates on everything, anywhere around the world. News of God speaking audibly to someone is bound to get lost in the hustle pretty quickly, if it even makes the news at all.
So that does mean you think that god still speaks audibly to people today, but its reporting is just lost in the hustle? How many people have you met in your lifetime have claimed that god spoke to them audibly and you believed them?
In my experience, I have met a few, and not one of them was credible. Why should people living thousands of years ago receive more credibility? Is it just because someone told you that people living thousands of years ago, contained within the Judaeo-Christian religion, are ones you can believe? Do you believe everything that people tell you?
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 02:12 am |
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I met one and even lived with him and his wife (the pastor who took me in at 16).
He was totally credible and the life he lived as God directed his path, helped even me.
The Lord spoke to him in an audible voice.
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Torquemada
Yoda
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Posted: Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 02:20 am |
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Ok, gang, I went for a long drive and then a long walk to try to sort of all of this out, and I have made up my mind. I'm not backing down or giving up. I will continue to believe in God, in hope, and in love. If I'm wrong, then at least I'll die in blissful ignorance of the universe's 'true' nature. And you know what else? I am going to get my girl back. And I'm going to do it with style. Because that's the kind of person I am. 
So fuck despair. I'm not giving up on hope.
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 02:24 am |
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And to Yoda....just rest (in the Lord).
Rest.
God is "I am" --ever present/ever in the present moment with us. Stay in the present moment with Him-- if you find your thoughts begin to trouble you, learn to receive from the Lord, in that moment, too.
Replace the troubling thoughts as you keep your mind stayed on Him. Replace with:
I receive your presence, your peace, your love, your healing, your care for my soul. Surround yourself with heavenly music, which focuses on Jesus, to help lift your soul out of the confusion and darkness into His light.
Stop holding on to the worry, the fear, the regrets, the torment. Leave all of that at the foot of His cross, and let it be replaced with His peace.
I receive....(tell your mind what it will and will not receive this way).
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Merlin
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Posted: Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 02:41 am |
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Getting your girl back won't solve the problem of christianity not working for you.
Last edited on Thu Sep 3rd, 2009 02:43 am by Merlin
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