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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 03:54 am |
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For the longest time, and I guess especially coming out of "Catholicism," I thought that having any kind of material carved 'image' of God-Jesus-saints-biblical characters- was just ~wrong~ so I didn't.
But last year, at a Christmas clearance sale, I saw what I thought was a really nice nativity set. Each person (except for the baby Jesus) has a scripture written on them too. -Even the manger has a scripture written all along the top.
So for the first time, I have an official nativity set, and put it up on the fireplace mantle.
Am I now a big-time sinner, or what?
I showed it to my mother-in-law yesterday, who was visiting, & who has a strict Church of Christ background, and I was kinda puzzled by her reaction. I got the feeling she didn't want to insult me, but also, that she wasn't all too thrilled to see it, so just remained rather neutral, "Oh..." But I really don't know their take on it....I do know some churches in general are vehemently against such images.
So how bout you? Do you have any feelings/convictions one way or the other about it?
Last edited on Tue Nov 25th, 2008 03:54 am by PearlsSand2
____________________
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
the philosophy which does not laugh
and the greatness which does not bow before children.-Kahlil Gibran
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 05:00 am |
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http://www.collectionsetc.com/Item76132.aspx
Now I've seen everything...
Oh wait, I just saw this:
http://www.collectionsetc.com/Item81134.aspx
-- A2SG, so much for sacred traditions....
Last edited on Tue Nov 25th, 2008 05:02 am by Arthur Two Sheds Gumby
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Wesley Owens
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 06:16 am |
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Arthur Two Sheds Gumby wrote: http://www.collectionsetc.com/Item76132.aspx
Now I've seen everything...
Oh wait, I just saw this:
http://www.collectionsetc.com/Item81134.aspx
-- A2SG, so much for sacred traditions....
Uhmmm, may the force be with Jesus?Attachment: nativitystarwars.jpg (Downloaded 113 times)
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 07:17 am |
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PearlsSand2 wrote: For the longest time, and I guess especially coming out of "Catholicism," I thought that having any kind of material carved 'image' of God-Jesus-saints-biblical characters- was just ~wrong~ so I didn't.
It's weird, though, how Catholics will wear those crosses around their necks.
I mean, that's clearly an image. And it's clearly being used as part of worship if not worshipped directly.
Never seemed very Biblical to me.
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Merlin
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 07:27 am |
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Is it wrong for protestants to carry a bible to church? After all, it's clearly being used as part of the worship. Some of them even leave it open on the bed when they pray.
That's ridiculous, guys. Leave the catholics alone if they want to wear a crucifix, and the nativity set is fine. If MIL doesn't like it, tough.
If you're going to strictly ahdere to the "no graven images" rule, then get rid of your avatars and pictures of your family. They're graven images, and god not only told the jews not to worship them, but not to possess them at all, ever.
Or, you might want to take into account that you're not jews.
____________________
"Christians should go to church."
"... it would be better for her to tie a heavy rock around her neck and jump into the midddle of deep bayou than it would to lay a heavy guilt-trip on any of God's little ones . . ."
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limana
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 11:26 am |
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PearlsSand2 wrote: For the longest time, and I guess especially coming out of "Catholicism," I thought that having any kind of material carved 'image' of God-Jesus-saints-biblical characters- was just ~wrong~ so I didn't.
I don't think it's a Catholic thing. I remember that Matt Slick did not allow for crucifixes (only simple crosses) as avatars, but the Catholic churches are full of them. Also, all Catholic churches in Germany set up nativity scenes on the first Advent Sunday and leave them out until Epiphany. Baby Jesus will not be added until Christmas Eve, though.
I think the extreme position on "graven images" is a Calvinist thing.
Last edited on Tue Nov 25th, 2008 11:29 am by limana
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Cajun
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 04:51 pm |
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I think the intent makes the difference, of the maker/designer/publisher or the worshipper/user.
My wife has a nativity set, and my mother has one too.
And we've got some books and such with "Jesus" pictured on the cover.
That said, we've gotten a Catholic family Bible and a couple of Crucifixes for our wedding and after the birth of our first son. We regifted the first crucifix and the Catholic Family Bible and the other crucifix is stored away somewhere.
Heh... and on the discussion of leaving Bibles open... I horrified a Muslim once when I told him that I had - and still do - on occassion read my Bible while going to the bathroom. 
Go to a total extreme, conservative Islam, much like Orthodox Judaism allows no graven images, that is, nothing that even looks like a person - though Jewish religion I do believe will have fruits and animals. Islam sticks pretty much to geometrical shapes - though some older Turkish, Mongolian or Mughal art depicts people - which is fun to watch some fundie Muslims squirm about that. Also, can't have the Quran resting on the ground (Little foldable wooden book supports can be bought specifically for your Quran), and some devout Muslims refuse to touch the Arabic script in their Quran, and when stored, is supposed to be placed in the highest shelf/place in the house. Moreso than the Bible, there is a debate in Islam as to the "nature" of the Quran, whether it was created or always existed.
On a side note, visting a Shia mosque once, I saw equilateral triangles throughout the hall. I asked the Imam if there was a special significance to only using/having equilateral triangles. His response, "It symbolizes the multiplicity of God coming together as one." My compatriots and eye did a sorta double-take and smile, but we never said a thing... that's not really tawhid, at least from everything I've learned and read from Christians and Muslims alike.
Last edited on Tue Nov 25th, 2008 04:56 pm by Cajun
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Like water on a duck.
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Pastor Ed Kalnins
Belvedere
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 05:55 pm |
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PearlsSand2 wrote: For the longest time, and I guess especially coming out of "Catholicism," I thought that having any kind of material carved 'image' of God-Jesus-saints-biblical characters- was just ~wrong~ so I didn't.
But last year, at a Christmas clearance sale, I saw what I thought was a really nice nativity set. Each person (except for the baby Jesus) has a scripture written on them too. -Even the manger has a scripture written all along the top.
So for the first time, I have an official nativity set, and put it up on the fireplace mantle.
Am I now a big-time sinner, or what?
I showed it to my mother-in-law yesterday, who was visiting, & who has a strict Church of Christ background, and I was kinda puzzled by her reaction. I got the feeling she didn't want to insult me, but also, that she wasn't all too thrilled to see it, so just remained rather neutral, "Oh..." But I really don't know their take on it....I do know some churches in general are vehemently against such images.
So how bout you? Do you have any feelings/convictions one way or the other about it?
On the one hand, I don't think it is proper for a true Christian to have nativities or creches. It looks too Episcopalian. On the other hand, I think the kneeling Santa statues send an important message. That's why we have one in our house.
Attachment: kneelingSanta.jpg (Downloaded 101 times)
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Wesley Owens
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 05:56 pm |
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That's creepy. Santa looks like a child molester. 
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rvhill
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 06:06 pm |
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The funniest thing about Graven images is the Hexagram.
1 Kings 11:7Then did Solomon build a high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and lmlk, the abomination of the Sons of Ammon.
Amos 5:26But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
Idolatry is a universal sin it seems
PS be very careful about speaking of Hexagram as a graven Image to both Jews and Muslims. They don't take it very well. Muslims see Solomon as a great Prophet, and the Jews, will it their symbol.
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Ronson
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 09:16 pm |
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PearlsSand2 wrote: So how bout you? Do you have any feelings/convictions one way or the other about it?
I can't imagine anything being wrong with it. They are simply symbols of your faith, the same as the word "Christian" is a collection of symbols identifying your faith. You aren't ascribing some mysticism to the images themselves.
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 10:29 pm |
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Ronson wrote: PearlsSand2 wrote: So how bout you? Do you have any feelings/convictions one way or the other about it?
I can't imagine anything being wrong with it. They are simply symbols of your faith, the same as the word "Christian" is a collection of symbols identifying your faith. You aren't ascribing some mysticism to the images themselves.
Postmodern literary theorists would argue that in our era, nearly everything has been replaced by a symbolic representation of itself.
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Carol2
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Posted: Wed Nov 26th, 2008 06:40 pm |
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I have a problem with shrines set up for, say, the Virgin Mary, or some other saint, but a nativity set is fine. It's just a bible story scene to remind us what Christmas is supposed to be about.
____________________
The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Wed Nov 26th, 2008 06:45 pm |
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Carol2 wrote: I have a problem with shrines set up for, say, the Virgin Mary, or some other saint, but a nativity set is fine. It's just a bible story scene to remind us what Christmas is supposed to be about.
Yeah, I don't know about "supposed to be about."
I'm sure you're well familiar by now with the fact that Christmas is an ancient pagan fertility festival, and some Christians came along and said "Put our name on your holiday or we'll kill you."
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Mary Magdaline
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Posted: Wed Nov 26th, 2008 11:59 pm |
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FYI- It's not a Calvanist thing to not have images or nativity scenes and the like. It is a Protestant thing to not have Jesus hanging on the cross.
I have a nativity set, and also a collection of ornaments with nativity scenes on them. I got the collection from the Franklin Mint, only to find out that they are too heavy (thick ceramic) to hang more than a few on the tree. That was a good waste of money. LOL! I just put them around the house since they are too pretty to get rid of. Anyway, I always thought not having pictures of Jesus or nativity scenes was taking the 'idols' and 'graven images' thing too far. I usually set up for Christmas the day after Thanksgiving--gulp, that's in two days! Time for me to get cleaning.
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"Feed my sheep."
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Thu Nov 27th, 2008 08:36 am |
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"If you're going to strictly ahdere to the "no graven images" rule, then get rid of your avatars and pictures of your family. They're graven images, and god not only told the jews not to worship them, but not to possess them at all, ever." -Merlin
Isn't a 'graven' image a 'carved' image? That's what I thought anyway; I should perhaps look that up again. I may be wrong, but as I recall when studying that many years ago, I came out of it thinking it was more like statues, which are found all over/in the Catholic church, so that's why I felt they were wrong---after--- coming out of Catholicism.
____________________
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
the philosophy which does not laugh
and the greatness which does not bow before children.-Kahlil Gibran
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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Carol2
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Posted: Fri Nov 28th, 2008 06:47 pm |
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AyHyperbole wrote: Carol2 wrote: I have a problem with shrines set up for, say, the Virgin Mary, or some other saint, but a nativity set is fine. It's just a bible story scene to remind us what Christmas is supposed to be about.
Yeah, I don't know about "supposed to be about."
I'm sure you're well familiar by now with the fact that Christmas is an ancient pagan fertility festival, and some Christians came along and said "Put our name on your holiday or we'll kill you."
You must be thinking of Winter Solstice, but yes, I am aware that many of our holidays are remnant of pagan celebrations what with Christams trees and Easter eggs and whatnot. I' also aware that Christ wasn't born on December 25th, but regardless, for Christians, Christmas is supposed to be a time in which we celebrate the birth of Christ, whoever it was who started the tradition. So the manger scene seems appropriate.
Last edited on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 06:47 pm by Carol2
____________________
The righteous shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).
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yoki
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Posted: Fri Nov 28th, 2008 09:24 pm |
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PearlsSand2 wrote: For the longest time, and I guess especially coming out of "Catholicism," I thought that having any kind of material carved 'image' of God-Jesus-saints-biblical characters- was just ~wrong~ so I didn't.
But last year, at a Christmas clearance sale, I saw what I thought was a really nice nativity set. Each person (except for the baby Jesus) has a scripture written on them too. -Even the manger has a scripture written all along the top.
So for the first time, I have an official nativity set, and put it up on the fireplace mantle.
Am I now a big-time sinner, or what?
I showed it to my mother-in-law yesterday, who was visiting, & who has a strict Church of Christ background, and I was kinda puzzled by her reaction. I got the feeling she didn't want to insult me, but also, that she wasn't all too thrilled to see it, so just remained rather neutral, "Oh..." But I really don't know their take on it....I do know some churches in general are vehemently against such images.
So how bout you? Do you have any feelings/convictions one way or the other about it?
Why worry about one of the 10 commandments specifying that "thou shalt not make any graven images unto yourselves"? Do you keep the other commandment to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy? Since most Christians break the Sabbath Day commandment, did not James say that if you break one commandment you have broken them all - therefore, most Christians break ALL 10 commandments - as they continue to stick to their literalist nonsense.
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Mary Magdaline
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Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 07:38 pm |
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yoki wrote: PearlsSand2 wrote: For the longest time, and I guess especially coming out of "Catholicism," I thought that having any kind of material carved 'image' of God-Jesus-saints-biblical characters- was just ~wrong~ so I didn't.
But last year, at a Christmas clearance sale, I saw what I thought was a really nice nativity set. Each person (except for the baby Jesus) has a scripture written on them too. -Even the manger has a scripture written all along the top.
So for the first time, I have an official nativity set, and put it up on the fireplace mantle.
Am I now a big-time sinner, or what?
I showed it to my mother-in-law yesterday, who was visiting, & who has a strict Church of Christ background, and I was kinda puzzled by her reaction. I got the feeling she didn't want to insult me, but also, that she wasn't all too thrilled to see it, so just remained rather neutral, "Oh..." But I really don't know their take on it....I do know some churches in general are vehemently against such images.
So how bout you? Do you have any feelings/convictions one way or the other about it?
Why worry about one of the 10 commandments specifying that "thou shalt not make any graven images unto yourselves"? Do you keep the other commandment to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy? Since most Christians break the Sabbath Day commandment, did not James say that if you break one commandment you have broken them all - therefore, most Christians break ALL 10 commandments - as they continue to stick to their literalist nonsense.
Um, yes, that's the point. NO ONE can keep the ten commandments, except Christ Himself. ALL Christians are guilty, not the most that you claim (but thanks for your underserved faith in Christians--didn't know you had it in you.  )
We are to strive for this but know that we are not ourselves Christ and not perfect. Do you keep all of the rules of the road? You never speed, you stop at all stop signs right where you are supposed to? No? Then why keep any of them?
____________________
"Feed my sheep."
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NorrinRadd
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Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 08:09 pm |
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AyHyperbole wrote: Carol2 wrote: I have a problem with shrines set up for, say, the Virgin Mary, or some other saint, but a nativity set is fine. It's just a bible story scene to remind us what Christmas is supposed to be about.
Yeah, I don't know about "supposed to be about."
I'm sure you're well familiar by now with the fact that Christmas is an ancient pagan fertility festival, and some Christians came along and said "Put our name on your holiday or we'll kill you."
Sure, we've heard that myth. But Christians know better than to believe it.
"There is a very widespread theory that Christmas began in Rome as a response to pagan festivities centering around the winter solstice, which was locally considered to be 25 December. The pagan celebration, which was first established by the Roman emperor Aurelian in AD 274, was called The Birth of the Invincible Sun. However, there is evidence that, some years earlier, Christians had made a sincere attempt to calculate the actual date of Jesus’ birthday. People commonly believe that Christmas was instituted on the date of a pagan holiday to supplant it, but it was actually the other way around. Christmas was there first."
From here.
____________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." -- Mythbuster Adam Savage
"Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence." -- ComputerGear T-Shirt
"Well THAT was a slap and a tickle!" -- William the Bloody
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