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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 02:58 pm |
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My son and I caught part of a show on this yesterday and it was amazing! -Didn't even sound 'scientific' to me, but more 'spiritual.'
Here's #1 of a video about this I found on youtube, there's other parts too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_vpEyE6rug
Here's part of an article which summarizes what this is from here:
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/science_technology/parallel+universes+exist++study/838052
"In Everett's "many worlds" universe, every time a new physical possibility is explored, the universe splits. Given a number of possible alternative outcomes, each one is played out - in its own universe.
Last edited on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 03:02 pm by PearlsSand2
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http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 04:20 pm |
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http://www.physicsforums.com/index.php
A very interesting forum to browse!
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Aldaron
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 09:37 pm |
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Yep, it's a very cool concept, one that grew out of quantum physics. Of course, nobody knows if it's true - but it's an interesting concept nonetheless.
It is, of course, a mine of ideas ripe for plunder by piratical science-fiction writers, too! 
(Stargate: SG-1 and Star Trek have made great use of it! )
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 11:04 pm |
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All this talk about an 11th dimension is fascinating, though I am only just muddling through it trying to understand just a wee bit, especially since cosmologists are now seriously considering it as some kind of answer which makes the puzzle-pieces fit together.
But how can it be true?! If every possible outcome is being lived out in parallel universes, does that then mean that we, as individuals, are there too, living them out? I think it was mentioned on one part of that video that it isn't *us persay, but then, who is it? Somewhere else I read that it was *us too. ~Perplexing.
I feel like the Scarecrow sometimes, "If I only had a brain." 
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Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
the philosophy which does not laugh
and the greatness which does not bow before children.-Kahlil Gibran
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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Aldaron
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 11:14 pm |
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PearlsSand2 wrote: All this talk about an 11th dimension is fascinating, though I am only just muddling through it trying to understand just a wee bit, especially since cosmologists are now seriously considering it as some kind of answer which makes the puzzle-pieces fit together.
But how can it be true?! If every possible outcome is being lived out in parallel universes, does that then mean that we, as individuals, are there too, living them out? I think it was mentioned on one part of that video that it isn't *us persay, but then, who is it? Somewhere else I read that it was *us too. ~Perplexing.
I feel like the Scarecrow sometimes, "If I only had a brain."
Don't feel like that. I think it was Professor Kip Thorne, a colleague of Stephen Hawking's, who once said: "Anyone who thinks they understand quantum physics, doesn't."
If the many-worlds concept is real, then yes, there are a potentially infinite number of Pearls and Aldarons out there, living their lives. Some would be almost identical (where I didn't have a coffee at my desk this morning), others would be utterly different (where I chose to remain at the bank where I first worked, never went into nursing, never met Mrs Aldaron and never had Little Aldaron).
I'd be really curious about the theistic implications of it, actually, if it was ever proven (though I can't imagine how we could prove it, except mathematically). If you accept the Gospels as true, how do you know in the next universe over there's a history where Jesus, say, never raised Lazarus? Or wasn't executed? Maybe there's a universe where Pilate decided to release Jesus?
Could make for some very interesting online discussions!
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 11:35 pm |
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"I'd be really curious about the theistic implications of it, actually, if it was ever proven (though I can't imagine how we could prove it, except mathematically). If you accept the Gospels as true, how do you know in the next universe over there's a history where Jesus, say, never raised Lazarus? Or wasn't executed? Maybe there's a universe where Pilate decided to release Jesus?
Could make for some very interesting online discussions! "- Aldaron
Exactly! That's what I was thinking- specifically about the theological aspects of it all, concerning Jesus, and His appearance among His creation--even in those *alternate universes.
That said, I'd have to go ~in general~ with this part of it all: 'that the scriptures may be fulfilled.' -Regardless of whatever universe He appeared simultaneously. (let me edit this to say: the raising of Lazarus specifically was not foretold in the scripture, so that needn't have happened for Him to fulfil the scripture/His purpose. That it did happen though, in this universe, is true, and worked toward a necessary timing matter, concerning His own death.)
-The only way to part from that would be to entertain that there could be another set of scriptures declaring the purpose of God, but that seems beyond possible, since God's purpose must be according to Himself/His will, which is not a mixed-bag of possible worlds. (edit, sorry, not worlds, but outcomes).
Last edited on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:02 am by PearlsSand2
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Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
the philosophy which does not laugh
and the greatness which does not bow before children.-Kahlil Gibran
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 11:38 pm |
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Also, that He died *once, for all, is significant I think, even if there were parallel universes.
It is appointed to man once to die, etc. too.
-Unless there is no death yet in operation in those other universes. yee-haw, this is fun to think about.
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Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
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http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 11:54 pm |
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Or....unless He died once for all, simultaneously in every other possible outcome-universe too, and that would still equal "once."
hmmmmmmmm......
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Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
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and the greatness which does not bow before children.-Kahlil Gibran
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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Aldaron
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:09 am |
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PearlsSand2 wrote: Or....unless He died once for all, simultaneously in every other possible outcome-universe too, and that would still equal "once."
hmmmmmmmm......
Ah....but remember, every possible outcome leads to its own universe. So out there, somewhere, is a universe where Eve trod on the snake's head and she and Adam never ate the fruit.
More seriously (since I obviously don't believe A & E were literal people), would there be different "heavens" for different realities? Is heaven one of those realities? Is God the creator of all those realities, or did they come about naturally?
Is there a reality where the Flood never happened? Where Sodom & Gamorrah still stand today?
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:16 am |
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Aldaron wrote: If the many-worlds concept is real, then yes, there are a potentially infinite number of Pearls and Aldarons out there, living their lives. Some would be almost identical (where I didn't have a coffee at my desk this morning)
Of course, I'm sure you're familiar enough with the theory that even a tiny, tiny choice like that could have massive implications, given enough time. You know, like, in 1000 A.D., a guy decides to have one extra cup of wine, and so he keeps a friend awake a little later, and that friend gets to work later than usual, so he doesn't bump into this girl, and so she ends up getting somewhere earlier, and she meets a guy there, and ends up marrying someone different.... and nine hundred some years later, Hitler is born.
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:21 am |
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"If you accept the Gospels as true, how do you know in the next universe over there's a history where Jesus, say, never raised Lazarus? Or wasn't executed? Maybe there's a universe where Pilate decided to release Jesus? " -Aldaron
The gospels would still be true in that they are recorded events that happened -in this universe/on this earth, with all the players & their situations as they were- with His intervention.
The difference would be between *how those details played out here, from other universes, but still fulfilling main "prophecies concerning Him.
For example, instead of me being a 16 year old hitch-hiker here who first heard about Jesus then to where it hit my heart.........maybe I would have been a 16 year old goody-two shoes, doing her homework, and a best friend of mine stopped by to tell me about Him, to where it hit my heart.
The purpose of the general prophecy about Him or that impact of Him upon believing, would have still been the same, but the circumstances of how it came about, different.
So in this world, the story *details would have unfolded one way, in the other, another way, but both results concerning the purpose of God (making Himself known to me) would have been accomplished.
(still having fun with this......)
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Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
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and the greatness which does not bow before children.-Kahlil Gibran
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:29 am |
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Aldaron wrote: PearlsSand2 wrote: Or....unless He died once for all, simultaneously in every other possible outcome-universe too, and that would still equal "once."
hmmmmmmmm......
Ah....but remember, every possible outcome leads to its own universe. So out there, somewhere, is a universe where Eve trod on the snake's head and she and Adam never ate the fruit.
That's what I don't think could be a possible reality, in any universe, because then the *scriptures could not be fulfilled, which is -why- He came and did what He did, in all possible universes! If it were God's intention for Eve not to have eaten the fruit, He never would have put it there in the first place. This is Parenting 101.  -Even I know how to child-proof my home for infants/toddlers.
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Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
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and the greatness which does not bow before children.-Kahlil Gibran
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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Aldaron
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:29 am |
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AyHyperbole wrote: Aldaron wrote: If the many-worlds concept is real, then yes, there are a potentially infinite number of Pearls and Aldarons out there, living their lives. Some would be almost identical (where I didn't have a coffee at my desk this morning)
Of course, I'm sure you're familiar enough with the theory that even a tiny, tiny choice like that could have massive implications, given enough time. You know, like, in 1000 A.D., a guy decides to have one extra cup of wine, and so he keeps a friend awake a little later, and that friend gets to work later than usual, so he doesn't bump into this girl, and so she ends up getting somewhere earlier, and she meets a guy there, and ends up marrying someone different.... and nine hundred some years later, Hitler is born.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm just pointing out that the branch that occurred just this morning (where I didn't have coffee). As you said, played out over time, that could have huge implications...perhaps that extra coffee made me a little perkier, so that the Visual Basic 2008 programming booklet I'm working on at the moment was just a little clearer, so one of my students understands the concepts a day or two earlier and manages to land a job with Cyberdyne and ends up creating Skynet...
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AyHyperbole
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:31 am |
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Aldaron wrote: AyHyperbole wrote: Aldaron wrote: If the many-worlds concept is real, then yes, there are a potentially infinite number of Pearls and Aldarons out there, living their lives. Some would be almost identical (where I didn't have a coffee at my desk this morning)
Of course, I'm sure you're familiar enough with the theory that even a tiny, tiny choice like that could have massive implications, given enough time. You know, like, in 1000 A.D., a guy decides to have one extra cup of wine, and so he keeps a friend awake a little later, and that friend gets to work later than usual, so he doesn't bump into this girl, and so she ends up getting somewhere earlier, and she meets a guy there, and ends up marrying someone different.... and nine hundred some years later, Hitler is born.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm just pointing out that the branch that occurred just this morning (where I didn't have coffee). As you said, played out over time, that could have huge implications...perhaps that extra coffee made me a little perkier, so that the Visual Basic 2008 programming booklet I'm working on at the moment was just a little clearer, so one of my students understands the concepts a day or two earlier and manages to land a job with Cyberdyne and ends up creating Skynet...
So, basically, you just killed us all. Hey, thanks for that.
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Aldaron
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:33 am |
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That's what I don't think could be a possible reality, in any universe, because then the *scriptures could not be fulfilled, which is -why- He came and did what He did, in all possible universes! If it were God's intention for Eve not to have eaten the fruit, He never would have put it there in the first place. This is Parenting 101. -Even I know how to child-proof my home for infants/toddlers.
But that's where there's a problem, and one of the interesting ones for theists to examine (again, assuming the many-worlds concept is real).
There's no way to know what's going to happen. "Fulfilment of scripture" implies that there is some kind of "destiny" that needs to be reached...but the many-worlds hypothesis demonstrates that this is simply impossible...at least, impossible for the vast majority of realities. Sure, there may be one where "scripture is fulfilled", but what of all the others?
And if you argue that scripture will be fulfilled in all the other realities, then we're really not dealing with the many-worlds as mathematically demonstrated, we're just dealing with multiple copies of this one...
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Aldaron
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:34 am |
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AyHyperbole wrote: Aldaron wrote: AyHyperbole wrote: Aldaron wrote: If the many-worlds concept is real, then yes, there are a potentially infinite number of Pearls and Aldarons out there, living their lives. Some would be almost identical (where I didn't have a coffee at my desk this morning)
Of course, I'm sure you're familiar enough with the theory that even a tiny, tiny choice like that could have massive implications, given enough time. You know, like, in 1000 A.D., a guy decides to have one extra cup of wine, and so he keeps a friend awake a little later, and that friend gets to work later than usual, so he doesn't bump into this girl, and so she ends up getting somewhere earlier, and she meets a guy there, and ends up marrying someone different.... and nine hundred some years later, Hitler is born.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm just pointing out that the branch that occurred just this morning (where I didn't have coffee). As you said, played out over time, that could have huge implications...perhaps that extra coffee made me a little perkier, so that the Visual Basic 2008 programming booklet I'm working on at the moment was just a little clearer, so one of my students understands the concepts a day or two earlier and manages to land a job with Cyberdyne and ends up creating Skynet...
So, basically, you just killed us all. Hey, thanks for that.
Yeah...my bad.
Sorry 'bout that.
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:40 am |
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Aldaron wrote: AyHyperbole wrote: Aldaron wrote: If the many-worlds concept is real, then yes, there are a potentially infinite number of Pearls and Aldarons out there, living their lives. Some would be almost identical (where I didn't have a coffee at my desk this morning)
Of course, I'm sure you're familiar enough with the theory that even a tiny, tiny choice like that could have massive implications, given enough time. You know, like, in 1000 A.D., a guy decides to have one extra cup of wine, and so he keeps a friend awake a little later, and that friend gets to work later than usual, so he doesn't bump into this girl, and so she ends up getting somewhere earlier, and she meets a guy there, and ends up marrying someone different.... and nine hundred some years later, Hitler is born.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm just pointing out that the branch that occurred just this morning (where I didn't have coffee). As you said, played out over time, that could have huge implications...perhaps that extra coffee made me a little perkier, so that the Visual Basic 2008 programming booklet I'm working on at the moment was just a little clearer, so one of my students understands the concepts a day or two earlier and manages to land a job with Cyberdyne and ends up creating Skynet...
LOL!
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Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
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and the greatness which does not bow before children.-Kahlil Gibran
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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Slim
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:56 am |
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I'm trying to imagine a universe without pork.
It just boggles the imagination.
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Aldaron
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:57 am |
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Slim wrote: I'm trying to imagine a universe without pork.
It just boggles the imagination.
Try imagining one without shrimp...
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PearlsSand2
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:58 am |
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Aldaron wrote: That's what I don't think could be a possible reality, in any universe, because then the *scriptures could not be fulfilled, which is -why- He came and did what He did, in all possible universes! If it were God's intention for Eve not to have eaten the fruit, He never would have put it there in the first place. This is Parenting 101. -Even I know how to child-proof my home for infants/toddlers.
But that's where there's a problem, and one of the interesting ones for theists to examine (again, assuming the many-worlds concept is real).
There's no way to know what's going to happen. "Fulfilment of scripture" implies that there is some kind of "destiny" that needs to be reached...but the many-worlds hypothesis demonstrates that this is simply impossible...at least, impossible for the vast majority of realities. Sure, there may be one where "scripture is fulfilled", but what of all the others?
I'm not seeing it like that, because of God. There is a way to know what's going to happen (God knows all things, past, present, future, all possible realities) - so in so far as it is true that God knows all things, then there is at *least one of us (God) who knows what is going to happen, and also how, and even moreso, moves all things along in accord with His purpose & knowledge and will. Why there can be no *others concerning the *purpose of God is simple. Unless God has two ultimate purposes running within Himself simultaneously, then how could anything He creates accomplish that? We're all out of God, from God, of God..etc. He's the Beginning and the End of all things........no matter if it is even a parallel universe's existance/experience, it's the same God.
And if you argue that scripture will be fulfilled in all the other realities, then we're really not dealing with the many-worlds as mathematically demonstrated, we're just dealing with multiple copies of this one...
How so? We'd still be dealing with one God, (well theists/Christians etc. anyway) expressing and intervening Himself in all possible outcomes. Mathematically is where this theory is being tried (and believed) by some of the smartest brains out there.....that this is actually possibly happening as we speak. Just the fact that you even said, if this was true, that there would be many Pearls and Aldarons out there (right now) ......and knowing how smart you are....and could entertain this....how could you believe such a thing is possible and yet not allow for me to believe the same thing, yet with Jesus fulfilling His purpose in every possible outcome (I'd love for free-willers to think about this).
That said, yes, so far I'd have to say that God's purpose to be -all in all- would present in every possible outcome, although the details of our human experience would be playing out differently in all possible universes.
I'm going to have to think some more about the possibility that Eve did not eat (that reality) and wasn't deceived. That would mean a possible world where there was no deception. Give me some time on that one, k? I'm going to ponder some more on that.
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Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
the philosophy which does not laugh
and the greatness which does not bow before children.-Kahlil Gibran
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
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